Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Good morning and welcome to Jazz Shapers, with me Elliot Moss bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today is Sidney Neuhaus, Co-founder of Kimai, the lab grown diamond jewellery brand. Growing up in a diamond trading family in Antwerp just like her future Co-founder, Jessica Warch, Sidney and Jessica shared a frustration for the lack of transparency and ethics found in mining and across the fine jewellery industry. An industry that for 100s of years has created a huge environmental and social cost. In 2018 aiming to meet the expectations of more consciously minded younger customers they launched Kimai using a 100% traceable lab grown diamonds and recycled 18 carat gold and we’ll find out exactly what a lab grown diamond is shortly. I’ve done my homework but I want to know more. Receiving a burst of publicity and investment when Meghan Markle wore a pair of their earrings after they approached her by the way with a cold email, Jessica and Sidney took another leap forward when their risk to refuse an offer on Dragons Den led to the support and deal they wanted to put education around their brand. Though digitally native, Kimai now has a London store on a very nice street too, one of my favourites in London, and they are one of the first fine jewellery brands to be certified BCorp. It’s very nice to have you here.
Sidney Neuhaus
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
I’ve got a, almost a TV celebrity. I know that’s sort of joke but you were on Dragons Den which means millions of people get to see you pitching.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Elliot Moss
No it’s a pleasure, it’s good to meet you properly. Quite a thing to take on. You are from a family that’s been involved in the diamond world – I know you’re a sort of a gemologist.
Sidney Neuhaus
Gemologist yes.
Elliot Moss
Gemologist and you go, you know what we’re going to shake it all up. Why?
Sidney Neuhaus
You know I always like I had a strong passion for jewellery because of my family background and Jess with my Co-founder as well. Just to give you a bit more perspective so my father is a jeweller, my grandfather used to be a diamond dealer and Jess’s father is also a diamond dealer so we kind of both were surrounded by diamonds, jewellery and we also wanted to create our own fine jewellery brand at some point. It’s kind of like always a girl’s dream to, to create their own diamond.
Elliot Moss
Sparkly, beautiful things.
Sidney Neuhaus
Exactly, sparkly, beautiful things.
Elliot Moss
That I designed for me.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah exactly,
Elliot Moss
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sidney Neuhaus
And then we went to study in London, both of us the same year. We studied different things; I studied gemology and Jess just studied more business and then we felt we were a kind of complimentary and we wanted to start as a, as a side business but we wanted definitely to create something that’s for our generation. We felt the jewellery industry was far away from what we wanted as young, young people creating our own life etc., and we saw that there was an opportunity because there was a lack of transparency in the industry in terms of the jewellery itself because you have so many persons in between from the goldsmith to the consumer, there is so many gaps and then the margins are huge from making the jewellery to the store and then also from a diamond perspective so we were asking around like our families and diamond dealers like, oh do you know where this diamond comes from like, which mine in the world where it was created etc., and then nobody could give us a straight answer and they said it is pretty much impossible because it goes through so many hands and then diamond dealers they exchange diamonds all the time because it depends on what their clients want. So then we said like okay there might be something we can do and then at the same time it was the beginning of lab work so we heard for the first time in 2017, we heard about lab grown diamonds and at first we were like, oh great it can’t be the same, it can’t be identical. Then we went into the diamond industry and then we started seeing proper lab grown diamonds and I studied gemology so I could really see that it was no different so in terms of chemically, physically and optically you couldn’t see the difference. Even with microscope it was impossible to, to tell them apart.
Elliot Moss
It’s just a sped up process as I understand it?
Sidney Neuhaus
Exactly.
Elliot Moss
Like thousands of years happen in a hugely hot compressed space which then alters the, the actual form.
Sidney Neuhaus
But the, the mining process, like to create the mine is, is a really, really long process and then that’s why also it’s so damaging for the earth but it’s misleading to say that diamonds are rare, it’s not really true.
Elliot Moss
No well that, that’s apparent I mean, once you get into these things.
Sidney Neuhaus
It’s all marketing.
Elliot Moss
It’s all marketing and of course, oh it’s going to take a lot to get that particular type and that particular colour and all that. But let me ask you, is it, it sounds the way you describe it as a very rational thing to have done now that you talk about it and often always in life we go back and we go, okay that’s how I remember it. Where’s the heart in this? Was there a sense of just I believe that I need to change the industry or was it a sense of, there’s an opportunity to create a category here? Which one, which one do you think it was?
Sidney Neuhaus
I think we were set on creating something, we wanted to be entrepreneurs. Just really wanted to create like, create a brand and a company and I really wanted to because I was so passionate about jewellery and I really wanted to create a fine jewellery brand. But we said or felt like we can’t create something that’s not representing our values, it was, it was the beginning of sustainably at the time like we were conscious about what we eat, how we buy clothing. It was the beginning also of brands like Reformation that use recycled garments etc., and it was really, in jewellery there was nothing done yet and then I don’t know, like all the stars aligned at the same point like we heard….
Elliot Moss
The shiny…
Sidney Neuhaus
…about lab grown diamond.
Elliot Moss
…the shiny, sparkly star.
Sidney Neuhaus
Actually using lab grown diamonds not only is cheaper, it’s definitely less expensive, at the time it was already 50% cheaper than mined diamond but also you can really know where your diamond comes from because you can visit the lab, you can see and don’t get me wrong, I think we have many labs today in the world but it depends how you chose them, if they use renewable energy; there are so many factors that you take into account.
Elliot Moss
And we are going to find out lots more in a second.
Sidney Neuhaus
Okay, sorry.
Elliot Moss
Sidney is, no, no it’s beautiful. Sidney Neuhaus is just going to have lots of stuff to share with us and I can’t wait to find out more about lab grown diamonds.
It’s evident that this is in your blood and as you were talking so passionately about all the different reasons why you got into this and how a younger person would say I need to know where it’s from, I need to know it’s not kind of you know, hurting the planet and obviously the diamond trade does. The very specific question I have and I want to come back to kind of the techniques and things. With your family involved in the traditional mining of diamonds, passing of diamonds and all that, the traditional methodology, the traditional part of the industry, them doing that and then you coming over here doing your new thing. Was there a tension around the kitchen table ever or the dining room table when they said, excuse me Sidney, what are you doing?
Sidney Neuhaus
A bit yeah. I think there was definitely some push backs because it was really the beginning, we were one of the first ones starting doing lab grown diamond jewellery. I think people didn’t think clients were ready to purchase lab grown diamonds so they were also thinking it’s not the same market, it’s not the same clients and we wanted to be luxury as well so we were, we wanted to touch the same clients as them actually. So we definitely had some push back. I think we are still getting some push back outside of our family in the diamond trade because the sort of lab grown diamond market and we can talk about it afterwards as well, it’s taking a big market share of the diamond market.
Elliot Moss
What percentage roughly now would you say?
Sidney Neuhaus
It’s definitely, it depends on which category for example in the US engagement ring was more than 60% last year.
Elliot Moss
Right.
Sidney Neuhaus
So just to give you perceptive, US being the biggest…
Elliot Moss
Yeah,
Sidney Neuhaus
…diamond market in the world of course but it’s like definitely…
Elliot Moss
Significant.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yes.
Elliot Moss
It’s significant already.
Sidney Neuhaus
Significant, it’s growing more…
Elliot Moss
And did you, and did you get what’s the word, your reaction to that, was it to say you and Jess went, we’re on to something here?
Sidney Neuhaus
Definitely.
Elliot Moss
They’re annoyed, they’re, they’re a bit defensive. Do we keep going? Yeah we keep going. Was there that?
Sidney Neuhaus
100% and still for example we had some push backs from magazines because they couldn’t talk about lab grown diamonds because they were sponsored by big diamond brands etc.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, lots of them.
Sidney Neuhaus
But, lots of them yeah and we, actually we never gave up. Never.
Elliot Moss
It sounds like the opposite happened.
Sidney Neuhaus
It actually was like, it, it created, we were yeah, as you said, it’s like we’re on to something.
Elliot Moss
Her eyes are sparkling as much as the diamonds she’s wearing here going yeah damn, damn straight that’s what pushed me on.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me for much more from my Business Shaper, it’s Sidney Neuhaus and she’ll be back with lots more and she’s the Co-founder of Kimai and she’s got a fire in the belly. Fire in the Belly for sure. Right now though we are going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series which can be found on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their practical advice and industry insights for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip we hear from Bianca Rangecroft, Founder and CEO of Whering, a fashion app on a mission to up end the by, use, dispose model.
You can enjoy and I hope you will, all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, I think there’s around 500 of them or something and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today, I am sure you’ve been paying attention, is Sidney Neuhaus, Co-founder of Kimai the lab grown diamond jewellery brand. You strike me as someone who knows how to manage themselves Sidney and you and Jess seem like you, you know you’re quite focussed. I’ve only read positive stuff about your journey, these words that people use but you know, the progress that you’ve made. Tell me about when it hasn’t gone so well, what’s been the kind of, have there been any fundamental obstacles to you getting to this point where lab grown diamonds are a thing, where your business is taking off, you’re opening in Los Angeles, you’re in London, you’re going to be other places I am sure soon. When was it not such plain sailing and how have you reacted to that?
Sidney Neuhaus
I mean the entrepreneurial journey is hard, it’s a long journey and it, you can see all the hype, especially in the business we are, it’s very sparkly and fancy but…
Elliot Moss
Like your life.
Sidney Neuhaus
Just being an entrepreneur…
Elliot Moss
Like your life.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah,
Elliot Moss
Sparkly and fancy, small children and everything.
Sidney Neuhaus
Exactly,
Elliot Moss
It’s just easy isn’t it?
Sidney Neuhaus
It’s not easy.
Elliot Moss
No it’s not.
Sidney Neuhaus
It’s definitely not easy, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s, we were lucky that we had both of us, so being two Founders I think that maybe helped because if someone is, has like a low energy because of X, Y, Z reason then the other one can help her just get her motivation back you know, that really, really helps. I think just hiring for example, for us was really difficult, I think we were 25 when we launched the brand, we didn’t know anything about how to manage people, how to manage a store, not even, we didn’t have that background or that experience so I think everything was a learning curve and yes definitely we have some lows like everyone and it’s just about like fighting through like also I think we were very good at creating opportunities and also taking those opportunities so like the stores for example, it was a pop up then we managed to sign the long-term lease. The LA store for example it came about like as an opportunity and we decided to take it but the journey itself has been hard. Also the push back from people who don’t want to talk about lab grown etc., but that kind of fuelled your energy as well in a way because you know you’re doing something.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sidney Neuhaus
Right or different.
Elliot Moss
Because you’re irritating people. It’s always a good sign.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah exactly.
Elliot Moss
And, and for the two of you, how long did you say you’ve known each other, you and Jess?
Sidney Neuhaus
Oh for a long time, probably 20 years yeah.
Elliot Moss
And that friendship which has then become a business partnership, has that worked entirely or are there moments when it’s tough because you were friends before? In other words some people start and they work together and then they become friends. You’ve gone the other way round.
Sidney Neuhaus
I think you have pros and cons. We’re lucky that we, and I think that’s necessary, is to have different part of the business to handle. So I do mostly everything that’s creative, more client focussing and then Jess will take care of everything that’s more business operation and the partnership has been successful because we, both of us have so many different skill sets and that definitely helps then you also get to do that with your best friend, it is amazing but also then you never stop working because you know when, like there’s no difference between you just automatically talk about work all the time but it’s good because you lived those experience and this journey with your best friend which is amazing.
Elliot Moss
And friendship in a way like that is fluid isn’t it.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
You just talk and you talk…
Sidney Neuhaus
Exactly.
Elliot Moss
…and you talk.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yes.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me for more talking with my Business Shaper today, it’s Sidney Neuhaus, she’s the Co-founder of Kimai.
We were talking about partnership and that’s great and the friendship is there which I think is very important. When you have raised money together, what’s that been like for the two of you? What’s the experience been because you’ve done pretty well. I mentioned briefly I think that you were on Dragons Den and that you can now quickly go into YouTube and put Sidney Neuhaus and Kimai – I can hear you tapping away – and it goes into you in there, you see and it’s a few minutes and it’s great because you hold your ground and you say, no, you want 3% is £250,000, we’re not going to give you 5% sorry and you take it or leave it. Very punchy. Were you like that with all of your investors?
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah we raised some investments at the beginning of Kimai when we had Meghan Markle…
Elliot Moss
A moment.
Sidney Neuhaus
…a moment yeah exactly, a big moment for us for the brand because it was three months after launch so we had a moment and then we took this opportunity again to raise funds because we had great numbers and very little brand. So yes we were very picky, always picky. I think it’s hard to raise money when you’re female Founders even though we had the obvious need to talk a lot with investors and but I think it’s mostly men that you’re talking about too so I think it’s hard also to tell them what you’re kind of creating. I think the jewellery there was not much investment in the recent years so I think they just, I don’t think it resonated with them as much. It was definitely hard. I think we raised the first round we raised with a lot of women Founders which is great and then Dragons Den, yes we were very picky. I think also we were talking with like younger investors and also the fact we were speaking to them directly so it is different than talking to VCs.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sidney Neuhaus
I think.
Elliot Moss
But, but the, what struck me was the confidence and the, you held the line and I speak to so many Founders but especially female Founders, as you said, it’s really hard to raise money and the data would concur with that, there is only what I think 2p in every £1 that goes to female founded businesses which is outrageous but how have you adopted such a confident position? Where is that confidence from Sidney?
Sidney Neuhaus
Because we had, we had a brand already, we had good numbers, we had…
Elliot Moss
But at the beginning I mean.
Sidney Neuhaus
At the beginning?
Elliot Moss
Yeah, why, there… it feels like there is so much belief and I’m just trying to work out why you knew and why you know this is going to be a winner?
Sidney Neuhaus
Because there was this opportunity, everyone was talking about lab grown diamond, we were the first ones and I think we had that confidence and also Jess, my Co-founder she’s kind of like managing all the business and operation side and she’s quite a confident person and then she, when she had something on her mind she said and then she’s going to do it. She’s a doer. So that definitely helped and I think again, we are a two so I think it helped like bring that energy in as well and we had, we had really good numbers by just doing everything by ourselves, like we were just the two of us and we, we didn’t have like, we have like a few products in and there were, we managed to get on Meghan Markle’s ears and, and Emma Watson and other celebrities just by, by doing things ourselves, we didn’t have a team at the time so I think we said like, okay if we can do that by ourselves like imagine what we can do if we have a team.
Elliot Moss
Imagine what they could do and here’s what they are doing with 7 years in and it’s going rather well. Final chat coming up with my guest today, Sidney Neuhaus and we’ve got some Irma Thomas for you as well, that’s in just a moment.
Sidney Neuhaus is my Business Shaper today, she’s the Co-founder of Kimai. That confidence which I mentioned, I alluded to with regard to the funding. This email that you sent, the cold email to Meghan Markle and probably other things that you’ve done. Where is that confidence rooted, where is that ability to say, do you know what I don’t care what people thing? And why has it been successful? Why have you managed to cut through and actually make things like the Meghan Markle thing happen?
Sidney Neuhaus
I think if you don’t try you will never get and I think like, and a cold email can be done by anyone if you create a good email, meaning like what your message is. If it resonates with the person who is going to read it they might get back to you and I think that it really worked for us when we raised money from investors or from female investors was just cold emailing. Not a lot of people do it actually. I think you get a lot of cold emails from sales people trying to sell you something but if you are telling them your story and how you admire them for, because of what they’ve done, then it might resonate with them, they might like what you are selling to them in terms of like the company. So that really worked for us.
Elliot Moss
And you still do the same, equivalent of the same.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah but you, you have to know that when we, we probably send like 100s email and then you get like one or two answers so, and that you shouldn’t give up basically and I think most of the people they send like, oh she didn’t get back and then they just give up. Sometimes you have to follow up like two or three times before you’re getting an answer. Never give up is a big moto for us. It’s like never take no for an answer, you continue, continue and then if you can’t get to that person, you find ways to get to that person so like going through the, her circle. That happened with Meghan Markle.
Elliot Moss
That’s what you did.
Sidney Neuhaus
Yeah that’s what we did.
Elliot Moss
Persistence. I, I read somewhere that your, your, the mission if you like, talking about persistence is to end an unethical industry. That’s how you described the diamond industry. If 10 is the end and 1 is the beginning, where are you?
Sidney Neuhaus
I think we’re on 4.
Elliot Moss
And how are you going to get to 5 and then 6 and then 7. What’s it going to take in the future for you to keep pushing on. Is this 100 years away? Is this 10 years away? I mean does the end mean it stops and there’s never going to be a mined diamond again?
Sidney Neuhaus
Are you talking about the sustainability? Not about the brand sorry?
Elliot Moss
I’m… no, no so I’m talking about the, when we talk about ending an unethical industry as in the mining for diamonds. I think that’s what I read about you, you believe that’s the mission if you like of Kimai, beyond obviously growing your own business, that means also the old way of doing things needs to stop. How far are you from achieving that, because that’s a biggy isn’t it? I mean won’t people always want to buy the traditional diamond?
Sidney Neuhaus
I think it’s changing definitely. I think we are on 6. I think basically creating a product is not 100% sustainable. You can’t be 100% etiquette because you are creating something which involves energy which involves so many people to create one piece.
Elliot Moss
But that doesn’t make it unethical. I think you’re…
Sidney Neuhaus
That doesn’t make it unethical.
Elliot Moss
No, unethical can be…
Sidney Neuhaus
But I think people perceive sometimes just like you are not like 100% sustainable. I am very upfront like you can’t be 100% sustainable if you are creating a product right.
Elliot Moss
And that’s fine. I mean, I mean the unethical part being…
Sidney Neuhaus
The energy…
Elliot Moss
The other, the old way of…
Sidney Neuhaus
The mining.
Elliot Moss
…mining. Yeah I mean because is that still, is that still what you want to do as a business or are you more focussed on just delivering fantastic lab grown diamonds?
Sidney Neuhaus
We’re focussed on our mission is bringing ethical jewellery for our clients.
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Sidney Neuhaus
And I think it’s definitely what we’ve achieved so far, that a lot like as you, as I told you about like 80%, 60% sorry, of engagements in the US were lab grown so it’s already significant impact. We recently introduced two years ago engagement ring collection and that really worked super well for us so you, you can tell already the huge shifts since we’re taking clients buying lab grown diamonds versus mined diamonds so there is a huge shift and I think it’s going to evolve like dramatically in the next few years as well and quicker than we think.
Elliot Moss
And have you got strategies in mind? You don’t have to give them away, which say in 5 years we’re going to have X percent of lab grown diamonds, in 10 years. Is it like that or is it just more every day you’re trying to get to more consumers to buy lab grown diamonds? Is it more evolutionary than it is revolutionary?
Sidney Neuhaus
It’s definitely more evolutionary because we are still a brand. We’re not a lab grown diamond company. We’re a jewellery brand so we’re selling a story, we’re selling craftsmanship, we’re selling our values for sure and designs and I think yes, definitely we have a strategy to go international, we are opening in LA as you mentioned. We are planning to open more stores, the next one probably will be France since it’s our territory market so that, that’s a new word for us. So that’s definitely how we are going to grow as a brand and attract more clients.
Elliot Moss
And last question just before I ask you your song choice. Does anything daunt you? You are a few years in, you’re still young in the scheme of things you know, you’re now 7 years into the business, you started at an incredibly young age like so many other people I meet. Are there things you worry about or is it all just show me the problem, I’ll learn, we’ll move on. What does Sidney feel about things that are new?
Sidney Neuhaus
Every day is a challenge. Definitely you have ups and downs so I am definitely, for me at the moment is like work life balance in terms of like building my family and building the business, it’s definitely tough so that’s my focus as well is like trying to find… I know it’s like you can’t find your balance because we keep on working and working etc., but to find at least the right balance while still growing the business and still putting all my energy into our growth as a brand.
Elliot Moss
Good luck with the balance when you find it, let me know how you did it. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Sidney Neuhaus
So my song of choice is Amy Winehouse, Valerie.
Elliot Moss
And any particular reason or you just love it?
Sidney Neuhaus
I love, I’m a fan of Amy Winehouse and I would have loved to go to one of her concerts.
Elliot Moss
That was Amy Winehouse with Mark Ronson and Valerie, the song choice of my Business Shaper today Sidney Neuhaus. They were energised by the push back, the fact that this new business was taking on the old way of doing things in the diamond trade was a key factor in propelling Sidney and Jess forward. ‘If you don’t try you won’t get’, I love their approach to winning business and to creating a brand they literally were relentless and persistent and finally, the power of friendship. How Founders working together can be so much easier than doing it on your own. Great stuff. That’s it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that addition of Jazz Shapers, you’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.