“We didn’t always think about infrastructure upfront and obviously by the nature of what we do people think the missiles, the jet fighters, the ships are the sexiest. I personally think, and I’ve always said this, concrete is very sexy. Just look at the National Theatre. I mean okay maybe it’s an acquired taste but I think it’s fabulous and without that we don’t have any place to put our ammunitions without a berth you know, the carrier can’t go into anywhere so these bits of kit are amazing but if they don’t have a home to dock into, then it doesn’t mean anything, they just rust.”
Susan Freeman
Hi, I’m Susan Freeman. Welcome back to our PropertyShe podcast series brought to you by Mishcon de Reya in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment. Today, I am absolutely delighted to welcome Sherin Aminossehe. Sherin has very recently become the Ministry of Defence’s first Director of Growth and Missions. Prior to that she was the MOD’s first Director of Infrastructure responsible for the strategic oversight of both global and domestic infrastructure and the defence estate optimisation portfolio worth over 5 billion pounds. She is also the MOD race champion where her aim is to promote and champion ethnic diversity in the department supporting colleagues from different backgrounds. Sherin’s previous roles include Head of Commercial Office Business at Lendlease where she was responsible for a range of regeneration projects in Stratford, Silvertown and Euston with, with a gross development value of over 5 billion pounds. In Whitehall, she held the dual role of Head of Government Property Unit and Head of Property Profession and Function for the Civil Service. She is an architect by background and has led large scale infrastructure and regeneration projects around the globe. Sherin is also a trustee of the Imperial War Museum and won the Asian Women of Achievement Awards in the inaugural Real Estate, Infrastructure and Construction Category. Recently she was awarded an honorary doctorate from University College of Real Estate Management for the contributions to the build environment.
So, now we’re going to hear from Sherin Aminossehe, a visionary leader whose career spans architecture, urban regeneration, Government strategy and Defence infrastructure and somehow combines this with being a talented artist. Sherin, good afternoon and thank you for joining us. I was trying to remember when we first met. I know it was many years ago and at the time you were still an architect but I don’t know if you remember?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think it was the time when I was working for Terry Farrell, so that would be early 2000s. So definitely a while ago.
Susan Freeman
Absolutely. And you have done an awful lot in the interim. You mentioned Terry Farrell, so let's start with your background as an architect and looking at your CV, I realised how well qualified you are. I think in addition to your degree in architecture, you've got a master's in architecture and a master's in development planning and somebody apparently told you at some stage that you'd never be an architect. Is that right?
Sherin Aminossehe
It was actually. Ironically, during lockdown, I did the graduation ceremony for the Bartlett and I started my speech by saying, never take no for an answer, because at the end of my first year at the Bartlett, my first year tutor said to me, ‘Sharon, you're never going to be an architect’ and maybe she had part of a point given where I am today, but I'm not quite sure she saw it through that lens.
Susan Freeman
Oh, how interesting. And did that drive you on to succeed being told that you weren't going to be an architect?
Susan Freeman
It did. I remember when she told me it was at the end of year one and she wanted to fail me. I was actually really quite upset. And she said, ‘stop you’re snivelling, you're never going to become an architect’.
Susan Freeman
And did she indicate where she thought you'd end up?
Sherin Aminossehe
No, she didn't. Her career advice wasn't that encompassing. It's probably better to leave it at that. But it did give me a certain amount of enjoyment at the Bartlett graduation ceremony to say, you know, look at me, I'm here.
Susan Freeman
Exactly. And I'm always fascinated by your backstory because you came to the UK when you were quite young, I think. So English wasn't even your first language. So perhaps you just let, tell the listeners a little bit about the backstory.
Sherin Aminossehe
Yeah, sure. So I came here in 1983 when I was six years old. I think you can do the maths now on how old I am. And I came with my parents to London, but we were never supposed to actually come to the UK. My parents had a visa to go to Canada so that was always going to be our main thing. And they wanted me to grow up in a different country that was much more open to women doing lots more things and we came during the Iran-Iraq war and my mum had her final interview with the Canadian embassy here and the man looked at her passport and saw that she was also an architect and said, ‘well, my brother is an out of work architect in Canada. I'm not going to let you go so you can take his job. Application denied’. So we ended up in this little island in between who chucks milk in their tea and absolutely adores football. But that was never part of the original plan. Of course, I didn't, my parents spoke English, but I didn't. I had three words, which was yes, no and thank you which if you don't understand what people are asking you, it's kind of a random response. And I remember my first day in a playground in this school on the Chalk Hill estate and just absolutely having no clue what on earth was going on around me. It was a really bizarre experience.
Susan Freeman
Well, I grew up near the Chalk Hill estate, so I think it must have been a very bizarre experience for you.
Sherin Aminossehe
It was and since you probably know it, towards the end of, so I joined there during the infants, a little boy actually tried to strangle me on the way to assembly. So, you know, I was fortunate that my teacher turned around and he stopped, you know, squeezing. And I think it's a really interesting thing about here about opportunity and how you support people in life because five, six year olds don't come out of the womb knowing how to do that to people. And here is where regeneration and things like that are really, really important and the support that you give to communities that they have a different experience.
Susan Freeman
I imagine you weren't thinking that. It was probably survival of the fittest. So you somehow managed to get through your experience at the Chalk Hill estate. You studied architecture and as you said, you started with Sir Terry Farrell, I think in master planning. That must have been quite an interesting place to be.
Sherin Aminossehe
It was amazing. I was really, really lucky. I did, I remember a Parliamentary event with Paul Hyatt on architecture, regeneration and housing and he very kindly invited me to an RIBA dinner and on one side of me sat Terry, another side of me sat another equally important architect. And he said, ‘well, there we go, you're in your last year of university, I'm sitting you between these. Make the most of your future employment opportunity’. And Terry very kindly invited me to come for an interview at his practice and I probably wasn't as geared up about large scale regeneration, but I knew I didn't want to be a sort of standard shadow gap architect, even though, you know, I love shadow gaps. I love beautiful houses and art galleries. But I knew I wanted to do those bigger things that had a bigger impact and I was fortunate that Terry offered me a job.
Susan Freeman
So how long were you there for?
Sherin Aminossehe
I was there for just under three years and I managed Terry’s pro-bono projects so I worked with him and others on the Marylebone Euston Road, the Thames Gateway National Park, the Nashramlas 08.49 and it was an incredible experience. I mean being able to work so closely with somebody like Terry, to learn from him directly principles of urban design, of good design, large scale. How the actually you know, façade architecture isn’t most important thing was you know, incredibly valuable and has stayed with me until now.
Susan Freeman
I remember being at a round table with Terry when he was talking about how it’s the space between the buildings that’s important and you know, it just really makes you, makes you think. And then you moved on to another architecture practice. What sort of projects did you work on there?
Sherin Aminossehe
So I moved to HOK, obviously very, very different and quite commercial compared to Farrell’s and again, sort of large scale master planning but I was keen to do more international work and have sort of greater responsibility over a, over a range of projects. But I sort of quietly laugh that you know I worked in all the countries I’m not allowed to go to now so I did a couple of projects in Moscow and St Petersburg. We worked in China, we had projects in Turkey, Kazakhstan. I went to Azerbaijan for a project we didn’t end up winning in the end and of course you know, lots of trips to the US so, and of course Saudi Arabia and a lot of Middle Eastern countries too.
Susan Freeman
Yeah that must have been pretty amazing so, I mean looking at that your move to join the Civil Service in 2011 was not an obvious one so I’ve just been looking forward to, to asking you, you know what your thinking was?
Sherin Aminossehe
And I think that’s the thing you know, we might have our careers planned in our head about where we want them to go and I always thought the end point for me would be partner in a large practice where I’d be running projects and you know, being much more involved in the management of the practice but I was leading a project in Jeddah which was a new town just north of Jeddah but it was also part of the flood alleviation strategy because they built on the wadis so flooding was a problem and I remember landing for that particular trip in Jeddah and myself and a colleague literally we got off the plane and it was raining and we both said, ‘ha ha isn’t that hilarious it’s raining here in Jeddah, wouldn’t they be amused back home and we should tell our flood consultants’ – not really taking it very seriously. And of course the rain continued and I remember about two days later I was sitting in the Jeddah Municipality Offices who were our clients and they said, ‘you know what Sherin, you need to go back to your hotel because it’s raining’ and I was like ‘oh come on you know, I’m practically a Brit now, just a little bit of rain don’t be ludicrous’. So I probably stayed longer than I should have done. Two hours later they finally bundled me into a car to go back to our hotel and of course by then it was too late because all the roads were flooded and nobody was going anywhere. So I was stuck in a 4x4 for about 6 hours and a further 3 hours actually in flood water. There was one point where I remember what was a wide boulevard had water just rushing down from it and there were these men who had tied themselves to lamp posts and the only way to get across was actually to trust them to grab you so that the water wouldn’t carry you away. So we did that and finally I remember sort of halfway we, we stood on something which ended up being you know, quite a high raised roundabout and I am thinking ‘there’s got to be more to life than this. I am not sure I can continue doing lots of paper projects for clients where it sort of gather’s dust and doesn’t have an impact and I want to do something different’. And then somebody I knew was going to set up the Government Property Unit in the Cabinet Office at the time or it was actually initially started up in what was BIS and they said, ‘would you like to apply for this job?’ and as they say, the rest is history.
Susan Freeman
Well that’s, that’s quite a story. So when you joined the Government Property Unit hadn’t been set up. You were responsible for setting it up I think?
Sherin Aminossehe
Yeah, alongside others. It was sort of very much in its infancy basically.
Susan Freeman
What were you doing, what was the strategy once, once you got it set up?
Sherin Aminossehe
I mean the key thing this was sort of during the days of efficiency and reform in the coalition Government so it was fascinating actually working for the coalition Government and obviously it was my first experience in the Civil Service but it was very much that we are spending a lot of money, both capital and revenue; so 13.36 cedel and nadel as we like to call it on property that we don’t need and instead that money should be going on frontline services and I fundamentally believe that to this day that property should never be for the sake of property in our respect because actually Government is delivering sort of more important things and if we’re wasting it on overly expensive leases or being in places that we don’t need to be, then it’s really important that we do things differently. So I set up the Government Pubs programme, one public estate working more broadly with the public sector, the land release programme and also worked with Ministers on what is now places for growth and I was the sponsor for what is now the Government Property Agency. And it was, it was an amazing sort of six and a bit years right at the heart of Government in the Cabinet Office, you know, experiencing lots of changes in Government, changes in policy and politics and of course property was the backdrop to make that happen in some ways and yeah, it was an amazing time.
Susan Freeman
So they were quite big numbers, the sort of amount that you were able to save in running costs and receipts weren’t they?
Sherin Aminossehe
So by the time I’d left obviously alongside departments, we had saved 1 billion pounds in running costs from offices that we didn’t need and we generated 3½ billion in capital receipts from land sales and obviously that land can then go to better use as well so housing, mixed use, schools, hospitals and so on.
Susan Freeman
So as you said, that was the precursor to the Government Property Agency and I have recently had Mark Bourgeois on the podcast as a guest talking about you know, what’s going on there now. And you were also Head of the Property Profession within the Government? What did that entail?
Sherin Aminossehe
So it was probably one of the bits that I really, really enjoyed. I’ve always been really passionate about learning and development and for me we don’t always think about that enough I think in our industry you know, it’s a CPD you can have a lunch and hear about the latest bit of zinc or windows or whatever or right to light issue that comes but I was keen that we had a framework that was a lot more encompassing and for the first time we brought all the property professionals from across Government together, did a deal with the RICS for leadership training which we ran through several cycles and I also started the first ever property fast stream. As you know the fast stream is well known in the Civil Service and we are seeing lots more specialist ones and I thought well why not a property one; actually train people in what is as I’ve said before, the biggest Lego set.
Susan Freeman
So you fast tracked graduates to come into the Civil Service and focus on property?
Sherin Aminossehe
Yeah absolutely.
Susan Freeman
And was that successful because I don’t think we tell our property story terribly well so sometimes it you know, takes quite a lot to explain to people how fascinating it is?
Sherin Aminossehe
It is and so the property fast stream is still going strong from what I’ve seen and I think your average graduate, okay we might not necessarily have best salaries but if you go within a normal company you might see a small project and as a graduate you won’t have that span but you can for example somewhere in the MOD or another department, you’ll be overseeing for example, being part of an FM contract that could be a billion pounds. You know, the numbers, the numbers and the scale is a different thing and also then you see how in terms of the locations we’re at have that supports from broader Government policy, how Government works more broadly and I am not saying people necessarily have to stay there forever but I think then hopefully we create good ambassadors who can then go into the private sector with an understanding of how Government works so that when we then work together better, there is that better understanding.
Susan Freeman
So I mean it just sounds like a fantastic role for you and as you said, you know a very large Lego set so you know what my next question is going to be. Why in 2017 did you decide to leave the Civil Service. I’ve actually got this theory looking at your career to date, six years seems to be, after six years something happens. So what, what happened in 2017?
Sherin Aminossehe
So 2017 I’d, I’d seen through and gone through the implementation of two strategy cycles within the GPU and I was still enjoying it but I had a bit of a yearning to actually do more delivery so I had an offer from Lendlease to go and head up their commercial part which was basically offices and leisure and obviously we’d done some work on Strat, so I knew Stratford quite well from sending parts of Government Department there and it seemed like a really, really good fit and I was keen to do something different. And you know, I like the international aspect of it as well. I’d worked with Lendlease previously when I was in Farrell’s doing the Greenwich Peninsula, of course they were Bovis then or Bovis Lendlease I think and it felt like a company that I knew about and I’d previously known people who work there so, so yeah, I trotted off back to the private sector.
Susan Freeman
For a couple of years I think so obviously it didn’t quite live up to expectations. What did you find when you got there?
Sherin Aminossehe
I mean I think sometimes you have to do something to realise that it’s not for you and I wouldn’t have done it any differently. Yes I definitely got to do delivery but they were also I think hard economic times, it was just post-Brexit you know, thinking about getting materials from other European countries you had to think quite a bit ahead and how investors wanted to look at the UK. I think I realised you know within a few months. Also having worked on Grenfell just before I left Cabinet Office that I really loved the multi-dimensional aspect of Government. The scale obviously we’ve already talked about but it was also important for me that social aspect, the economic aspect, that both the big and the small key politics and actually thinking about it strategically from different angles and whilst you know, Lendlease had some amazing projects it didn’t quite scratch that itch for me and I found after a year and a bit that it probably really wasn’t for me so I took a little bit of time thinking where I wanted to go back to in the Civil Service and I ended up in MOD.
Susan Freeman
As very first Director of Infrastructure. How did it come to be a new role? Did you, you looked at the MOD and was the role offered or did you create it or how did that happen?
Sherin Aminossehe
So the department had already created it, it came off at the back of you know the Capita contract ending within the Defence infrastructure organisation and MOD wanting to think about the way it did it’s infrastructure differently so basically separating out sort of pure delivery and balance of investment, strategy and policy. So I came in being responsible for the overall policy and the strategy and also balance of investment and it was also at the same time that we did something in the department which we call basically delegation so Army, Navy, Airforce, Strategic Command were given their own pot of money to invest in infrastructure rather than all those decisions happening through the DIO. And so they needed somebody centrally to cohere that and a small team to do so, smallish and also I then became the Senior Responsible Owner of the Defence Estate Optimisation Portfolio which was a further 5 billion, 5.1 billion of investment into our bases, basically creating homes, training facilities, technical facilities for the Forces and their families.
Susan Freeman
And it sounds like sort of quite an obvious question but what comes within the infrastructure umbrella and what doesn’t come within the infrastructure umbrella because it is a very general term isn’t it?
Sherin Aminossehe
It is a really general term and I am inundated still believe it or not with random things from IT cloud people who want to sell me their services. I mean god knows what they think MOD is going do with it, who knows. But so I always say to people it’s things that don’t move willingly so large heavy infrastructure buildings, it also includes berths of ships and so on so forth and to a certain extent the nuclear stuff although that is done slightly differently but that was overall especially in the first bit within the original oversight of the Directorate.
Susan Freeman
And I, I heard you make a point in an interview that you can have you know, as many fighter planes as you want but if you don’t have the runway in the right place they can’t do anything so it’s, it’s clearly quite key to what the department does.
Sherin Aminossehe
Absolutely, I mean we don’t and especially when I first started, we didn’t always think about infrastructure up front and obviously by the nature of what we do people think the missiles, the jet fighters, the ships are the sexiest. I personally think and I’ve always said this, concrete is very sexy. Just look at the National Theatre. I mean okay maybe it’s an acquired taste but I think it’s fabulous and without that we don’t have any place to put our ammunitions, without a berth you know the carrier can’t go into anywhere so these bits of kit are amazing but if they don’t have a home to dock into, then it doesn’t mean anything, they just rust.
Susan Freeman
And before you took on this role of Director of Infrastructure, how would all that be coordinated?
Sherin Aminossehe
So it was coordinated through the Capita contract and through the Defence Infrastructure Organisation but I think one of the things they were finding as a department is that what we call the command, so you know, Army, Air etc., wanted to and it was helpful for them to be given more responsibility over investment rather than it all being done centrally. But obviously that needed a certain degree of oversight but also what we found out in the years after delegating that budget to them that actually command started to spend more money on infrastructure than when it was centrally done.
Susan Freeman
So, is there anything that you regard as your, you know, your, your greatest achievement in that role?
Sherin Aminossehe
I mean, I’m, I had a brilliant as you say, six year period. I had a brilliant nearly six years, one month short, during that job but I’m, I’m well I’m really proud of some of the things that actually came out of it, particularly through the Defence Estate Optimisation Portfolio because when I came in to the department there were questions about the viability of that portfolio going forward and together with our delivery agents the brilliant team that I had working with me and of course our private sector partners we went through a position where that portfolio wasn’t well regarded to actually delivering projects on the ground and you know, we had 20 projects either built or under construction by the time I left. We’d vacated 30 sites. It was a portfolio of just over 80 projects and that led to you know, land being released for 7000 homes, revenue savings for about 1.6 billion pounds and that was very much a collective effort across the department but it was brilliant to have the opportunity to lead that.
Susan Freeman
So you have very recently taken on a new role as the MOD’s first Director of Growth and Missions and you know, against the backdrop of the Governments Strategic Defence Review and you know, more spending on defence, it will be really interesting to hear what you know, what this new role entails and how it differs from your previous role?
Sherin Aminossehe
Yeah and I suppose it’s a bit of a departure for me isn’t it so really a property person pretty much through and through, now doing what I would probably term as more of a proper Civil Service role. So you know, we were fortunate to be given a substantial uplift in terms of defence spending and it’s not unreasonable to be asked in return – I think it’s actually only right – to actually show but also to ensure that that uplift in defence spending is actually benefitting the whole country. So part of the role is to understand what we are doing already but also seeing where the gaps are and how we can improve it. Also then to measure how we’re adding to growth and also another part of the role is to look at how we do investments across defence and also how we work with private sector investment and what that might look like in the future. So those elements of my previous role but it is very different to at least on paper and what I’ve done before but in some ways it’s kind of similar, as you know working across large complex systems, getting agreement, coming up with strategies and it sort of goes back to I suppose the Terry Farrell thing, I’ve always loved that larger picture you know, why is the reason we’re doing that thing. It’s about that regeneration, it’s about the improved impacts that it has on the community and in essence that’s what this is about too.
Susan Freeman
So you, you mention investment and working with the private sector. How will it open up opportunities for private sector real estate to get involved because obviously everybody has got very excited about you know, defence and how they can convert their, their properties to something which is defence orientated but how do you see it happening?
Sherin Aminossehe
I mean I think, I think there is definitely opportunities for closer working and in terms of property sector you know, we’re looking at that in terms of housing. We’ve got a pipeline of projects that we want to do and obviously you know, our appetite to do things inevitably is actually larger than the amount of money that we will have so there will definitely be opportunities to partner with the private section and we are in the process of doing the defence investment plan which will bring greater clarity to that and strategy on that in the Spring as we put out in the Strategic Defence Review so I will definitely say watch this space and there will be more to come on that.
Susan Freeman
And did you, did you mention that you’re setting up a Defence Bank?
Sherin Aminossehe
So that is a work in progress which the department was doing and I, I’ve inherited so yeah. There is definitely work in progress on that.
Susan Freeman
Okay so Sherin as you say you, you’ve worked extensively across the you know, the private sector and with Government in the Civil Service. How’s the real estate sector perceived by, by Government?
Sherin Aminossehe
So I think there’s a really strong symbiotic relationship but I think what we’ve got to realise is just as very few people in the private sector have worked in the public sector, it goes the same way. So we work together by and large well but I’m not sure unless we sort of walked in each other’s shoes, that there is always that understanding of what it’s like for the other side and I feel that I’ve always been fortunate to do the same. So I’ve had people say, ‘oh but what is it like being a consultant having to go and ask for jobs?’ It’s like fine because you know, at the end of the day it’s those jobs that make things happen and you know, when I was in the private sector I had people I was responsible for that you know, get their salaries from it. You don’t have the profit motive within the Civil Service which makes it different but I think if we could just have more cross working but also secondments between each sector, I think that would be a really amazing achievement.
Susan Freeman
That’s a very good idea. I think you should definitely put that one into effect. And do you think decision making is different when public accountability is actually part of every project that you’re involved in? Is it different from when you are working in a private company?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think it is different because you always have to think about that wider picture but then mind you whilst I probably didn’t think about that as explicitly when I was a consultant or at Lendlease, I definitely was more cognisant of it in Lendlease having just come out of the Cabinet Office. I think it is a useful frame, framework to base decisions on. However I know there’s always a perception of because decision making is different in Government it can take a really long time and it can do, it can be so but also I remember when I came back into the private section actually being surprised when I thought you know what I’m coming back into the private sector, everything is going to be really, really quick. Then actually because of the Australian mother ship, actually things weren’t that quick because there was assurances, risks etc., just like in the Civil Service that you had to do for what seemed to me again, coming out of Government, relatively small sums of money. So I think we have a perception of private sector quick, Government must be slow but it isn’t always that and actually oddly enough when there’s serious emergencies and I look at the way that the sort of department worked on Ukraine. Things can happen really, really quickly but yeah, it depends doesn’t it.
Susan Freeman
It depends I suppose where you are and who you’ve got working with you and what access you’ve got to the person at the top.
Sherin Aminossehe
Yeah I think that’s fair.
Susan Freeman
And I was thinking, I mean you must be leading teams that really are multidisciplinary, I mean you know very much more so than if you’re working the private sector so you’re going to be in meetings with planners and military personnel and you know, civil servants you know with different sort of mind-sets and pressures. How, how do you do that? How do you, you know lead that team when everybody has got sort of slightly you know, a different agenda?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think oddly enough it was actually during my time particularly in HOK so leading those multidisciplinary teams but also multinational with very, very different cultures that I think helped my mind-set when I came into the Civil Service. But then I remember you know, my early days in the Government Property Unit and you are going to laugh at this because everyone said to me, ‘you’re going to leave architecture, you’re really going to miss being an architect’ and I didn’t particularly miss being an architect, what I did miss is – and this is so minor but it still sticks to me – is that, that design eye of what looks good. I’d look at a PowerPoint, this makes me sound as if I have OCD and I’d go, ‘seriously is the way you put it?’ and of course being trained to use those PowerPoints’ to get jobs to highlight you know, your design work, it was really, really different. And I suppose the two other big culture changes for me is working with generalists. So up to then I’d only ever worked with specialists, you know they might be from different disciplines or different countries but they were always specialists in their field. Here people had broad experience and actually you know, their last job might have been in Department of Work and Pensions working on you know, benefits policy and they’ve come over here and it is how do you start when people have very different experiences and very different knowledge having that sort of same base and understanding and then using that knowledge to play to their strengths knowing that you know, you were going to put them on a more specialist piece of policy of work and then I suppose working with the Military in MOD was again a very, very different experience to working with Civil Servants and having worked with consultants before.
Susan Freeman
It must have been quite a learning curve when you started. Was there sort of any moment when you thought well goodness this is, you know, this is very real, this is very different from what I’ve been doing?
Sherin Aminossehe
When I came into the MOD I had a small team of military people, four of them. One who was a Colonel and the other ones who were the rank below and I said to them, ‘well you know, I’m really keen to support you and particularly in terms of career development, please tell me how I can do this?’ And the Colonel just gave me this you know, gigantic policy document which I did dutifully read of you know, how you manage careers in the Military and it was one of those Dorothy moments, it was like well you’re not in Kansas anymore Sherin.
Susan Freeman
And has there been any resistance to you as a woman?
Sherin Aminossehe
So my very first team I had two incredibly impressive women; one of whom I think is now working at the equivalent of a One Star, she was in the Navy and the other one is I think very close to being promoted and they were, they were both absolutely magnificent. And you know people at the end of the day are people you know, I’ve had gender issues probably throughout the whole of my career. I remember when I did my year out in architecture after my Part 1, when I was working in Chapman Taylor. I had a t-shirt of one of those modernist icons and it was quite a fitted t-shirt but you know, I was a student and I didn’t really think about you know and I remember one of the older architects there going ‘oh I didn’t realise that building had a cantilever’ and I was making him a cup of coffee at the time and I went ‘right you say that one more time about a cantilever on that building and do you know where that hot coffee is going to go?’. And he never said anything like that ever again.
Susan Freeman
No, I hope you haven’t had similar incidents as you’ve progressed through your, through your career?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think they’ve got less. I remember I had a whole range of stuff going on at MIPIM you know, the bar roamer, groping hands that you always had to avoid. One consultant who worked for me decided it would be great if I went underwear shopping with him for his wife and that I would be a great model for it. He shall remain nameless but I never spoke to him again after that. And then I sort of ended up just developing a patter of going when people were sort of basically trying to chat me up and they could see that I was, I wasn’t married at the time but I was engaged, and saying, ‘oh well yes my favourite pet is a snake’ and you could just see them going, she likes snakes, she really likes snakes and then so, ‘oh so what kind of sports do you do?’, ‘yeah I’ve just learnt to do boxing, I’ve got a really good right hook’ and then I could just see them flee you know, stage left and then when I did have my son. This was now in the Civil Service, I remember actually people in my own team saying to me, ‘oh you’ve come back really early, who’s looking after your son?’ I ended up going you know, ‘it’s amazing how independent they are so early on you know, I’ve just left him at home with a pot noodle’. And they just were trying to figure out whether I was being serious or not. Or I even had one person who said, ‘oh come on, don’t kid me you’re not actually Sherin Aminossehe anymore, why do you keep on using that name?’ I was like, ‘what do you mean, of course I’m Sherin Aminossehe’. ‘No, no, no but you’re married now, I came to your reception, you’re Sherin Buxton now’ and I was like ‘Sherin Buxton doesn’t exist, I didn’t change my name’.
Susan Freeman
So obviously you dealt with things like that, you’ve broken many barriers as a woman in, in property and Government and I just wondered whether that had actually shaped your leadership style you know, just having to deal with these sort of things and make sure that people don’t challenge you?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think it does inevitably shape you. I think sometimes you become a bit more wary but I think for me it has always been making sure that the people who I work with who are in my team don’t experience that. So I think one of the reasons and just sort of briefly mention it one of the reason I became Race Champion was that actually this kind of thing is really, really important. It doesn’t matter what gender you are, where you’ve come from, whatever that actually we should all be treated the same and that, that is just a fundamental human right. So I think it has shaped me but also I’m really aware that as somebody who is senior you know, that will happen to less. I’m really conscious that as a senior woman that I make sure that those who are junior don’t experience that.
Susan Freeman
And do you think that they see less of that than you or I would have seen?
Sherin Aminossehe
I’d like to think so. I think The Me Too movement and you know a lot of the press coverage of the shenanigans that went on at MIPIM probably, probably in our day did bring that much more to light and actually I have spoken to some more sort of people who were at the beginning of their career in the property industry and when I tell them some of my stories they do genuinely look horrified so that gives me hope that actually they, they experience, either don’t experience that or experience a lot less of that now because you know, times have moved on and you know, just as well.
Susan Freeman
And what, what advice do you, because I imagine you do quite a lot of mentoring and what advice do you give to women you know, who are coming into an industry which wasn’t necessarily built with them in mind. How do you, how do you advise them on the, on the do’s and don’ts.
Sherin Aminossehe
What I always say is you know, know your own self-worth. To me that has always been really critical. Don’t necessarily take no as that final answer but at the same time and there’s a line from my favourite poem which is Rudyard Kipling, If – which says, ‘but make allowance for their doubting to’ so I think that is, that is really equally important. But also know what differentiates you from others. Early on in my career because I had done policy advice, I’d written articles for the Architectural Journal, I was different probably to your average architecture graduate. It also meant that some practices were much less interested in me of course but it meant that I was different and that I could market myself as much and I say to people coming into their career, think what it is that you want to do. It might not be where you end up, just look at my career, but knowing what you want to do, specialising in things, showing where your unique selling point is really will make you much more attractive but also when you get to that all important discussion about promotions, pay rises, it means you can argue your case much better.
Susan Freeman
It’s an interesting point because in these podcast discussions about you know, the role of women in real estate the question of confidence comes up that often women don’t have the confidence to realise what they USP is or you know, how they are different. I mean do you find that in your conversations with people that you are mentoring?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think it definitely does happen but it’s, it’s also a thing where you know, I’ve gone to choose so many seminars going you know, you must all have imposter syndrome. Why? If we also stop telling people, so we’ve got to allow for the fact that some people do feel nervous and you know, that is a perfectly natural state and we’ve got to support people through that but let’s also stop telling people that they need to have imposter syndrome. It’s fine. I think we need to accept confidence and ambition in women much more readily because we’re not there as a society yet. We accept ambition in men much more readily than we do in women and because of that signal from society then women feel they have to be less confident, show themselves less, not talk about their ambition but we don’t realise that actually ambition isn’t a dirty word because unless you’re out for you know, power dominance, if you are actually there because you want to have more accountability, you want to make the world a better place, you want to be managing that bigger project or designing that better building. What’s wrong with that?
Susan Freeman
And do you think your, your confidence and your ambition goes back to school or just you know, the way you were brought up? How do you account for it?
Sherin Aminossehe
I think it comes from having role models, so seeing my mother being a professional architect. Both my parents were really always supportive of me. I think part of it is also being a first generation migrant. You always have that feeling that you’ve got something to prove and the fact that I know my parents gave up a lot for me to be here always spurns me on to make sure that what they did for me wasn’t for nought and don’t get me wrong, it’s not all about a guilt complex but you know, I genuinely enjoy what I do and that’s also you know, one of the best parts of being pushed into doing that kind of thing.
Susan Freeman
It’s an interesting thing, I know when I was at school and I was told that you know, women can do anything professionally that men do and I, that sounded fine to me. When my daughter went to that school I went back, I was frowned on because I wasn’t at home for my daughter to do her homework. So there are sort of double standards aren’t there?
Sherin Aminossehe
You are absolutely right and my school was the same so it was very much you are the crème de la crème, women can do anything, look at our Founder but then you know, so many, I don’t think necessarily everyone realised their potential because there was still that expectation of society of when you had children as a woman you would spend more time at home than your other half and I remember in a German lesson we did a show of hands saying, ‘how many of you are going to continue working after you’ve given birth?’ and it was like kind of read that you would give birth of course which is also equally bizarre now and about 80% of the girls were like no we’re not going to work afterwards’. Which was bizarre and this was in the, this was in the early 90s.
Susan Freeman
I wonder how it would pan out now?
Sherin Aminossehe
Mm I do I mean, there was some statistics from the ONS that now half of women at the age of 30 don’t have children which is a significant increase on that number, not that long ago.
Susan Freeman
I think a lot of women are actually having children later but no it’s interesting isn’t it. What I find amazing Sherin is you are also a published artist and author and I think a lot of us remember your wonderful drawings during lockdown when you, you very kindly volunteered to draw places that people were close to but couldn’t travel to during lockdown and I mean obviously we can’t show your beautiful drawings on this podcast but they are so intricate and so you know, fantastic and I often wonder why you just didn’t go into having a career as an artist?
Sherin Aminossehe
That’s really lovely of you first of all. During lockdown I think it was my link to the outside world and a bit of normal sanity so actually in a way I saw it as a privilege of being able to bring those places to life for those who couldn’t go and do them. So there was a church tower in Lebanon, there was a railway station in Melbourne and I learnt so much through that. Yeah I have to admit there is a little part of me that thinks wouldn’t it be amazing to go and be an artist, an illustrator full-time but I mean I do love my job and what I do and also the economics of illustration doesn’t always pay the bills either.
Susan Freeman
And do you think you, I mean do you use your creativity as part of your day job do you think?
Sherin Aminossehe
I’d like to think I do to a certain extent and there is definitely an overlap. So one of the charities I particularly support is SSAFA which is the main Armed Forces charity that helps both people who are serving and also veterans. So I draw their annual calendar which I am in the process of finishing at the moment. I’ve got three more to do. So there is definitely a bit of an overlap and I, so I definitely think in pictures, I think in diagrams so when I do presentations there is always some sort of diagram or some sort of picture in there so I think it, it is linked and I, I find it also a sort of the other side, it’s nice to have something different to do also that is different to work but yet you know, helps a charity of somewhere I work with.
Susan Freeman
It is interesting because I know you like things that are complicated and challenging and your drawings are actually you know, they are quite complex aren’t they, there are lots, lots of moving parts.
Sherin Aminossehe
And it’s really interesting so there is detail but actually if you, if you sort of zoom in into a drawing it, the detail isn’t super precise, it is a figurative depiction of that detail. So you know, there might be a little rose on a picture of a cathedral which is done in stonework, I won’t actually draw it but it was like it’s the hint of it so it gives me, as you say, the sort of challenging aspect of it gives me a lot of enjoyment. It is sort of my bit of mindfulness doing that level of detail but it’s really interesting, I draw more now than I ever did when I practised professionally as an architect which just goes to show you know, a bit like cobbler’s children.
Susan Freeman
You have a new book coming out about Britain’s railway history which looks pretty extraordinary and I’ve started looking at it and it really does fire the you know, the imagination. How did you arrive at that? Why, why railway history?
Sherin Aminossehe
It’s actually quite a convoluted tale but because of a talk that I did as part of, during lockdown, on a Civil Service conference for women an agent, a literary agent literally got in touch with me and because never in my wildest dreams did I think I would end up with a literary agent, I thought she was spam basically. I thought she was one of these people who, who are basically scammers so the poor woman, I ignored her and then she came back to me and go, ‘did you get my email?’ Anyway she turned out to be genuine and she’s absolutely an amazing person and very patient it turns out. So in the end after sort of thinking about where we might end up, there was another book proposal which didn’t fly and then she said, ‘what else are you interested in?’ and I said, ‘oh I’ve always loved train journeys’ and I had just spoken to the permanent Secretary, then permanent Secretary of Department for Transport who said, ‘you know the bicentenary is coming up in a couple of years’ time’ as it was then and I just suddenly thought, you know there is no sort of, there’s lots of books obviously about railways and railway journeys but nothing properly about all aspects of the infrastructure and definitely nothing celebrating the two hundred years in sort of drawn form and wouldn’t it be amazing to bring that to life, not just the things that exist now but also the stations that were lost but also the people who, who made it happen and, and the links to that. So hence the idea was born and Pat Brown who had supported me in my previous drawn journeys on social media during lockdown had introduced me during that time to Peter Hendy and Peter very kindly agreed to do the foreword for the book so it’s actually due two days before the bicentenary of the very first railway journey which was 27 September 1825 and the book is actually coming out on the 25 September and it’s, it’s split into journeys; the first journey being the very first one which was from Darlington to Stockton which was the granddaddy of effectively the journeys that we have now because it was the first one that took passengers and goods from, although it was a short distance it was a big deal for them.
Susan Freeman
Well it sounds amazing and I’m, I’m delighted and not surprised to hear that Pat Brown another podcast guest has been involved and I hope there is going to be a launch party.
Sherin Aminossehe
Absolutely and I’ll definitely you know, let you know.
Susan Freeman
Thank you. So just to finish off, if you could go back and give your 21 year old self one sentence of advice, what would you say?
Sherin Aminossehe
Life doesn’t go in straight lines.
Susan Freeman
That’s very good. That’s very good Sherin. And I notice that on your LinkedIn page there’s this little quote at the top that says ‘you may not always end up where you thought you were going but you will always end up where you were meant to be’. So that gives you pause for thought doesn’t it. So I think we are out of time.
Sherin Aminossehe
Thank you so much for having me.
Susan Freeman
Sherin I’ve really, really enjoyed it and I will watch with interest as your new role develops. So good luck with it all.
Sherin Aminossehe
Thank you very much and I’ve really enjoyed it too.
Susan Freeman
Thank you so much Sherin, what an amazing role model with so many firsts in your multifaceted career to date. We wish you every success in your new role and will watch this space with interest.
So that’s it for now. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation. Please join us for the next PropertyShe podcast interview coming very soon.
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