Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Thank you for joining this Mishcon Academy Session, part of a series of online events, videos and podcasts looking at the biggest issues faces by society today. Just to introduce myself, I am Kevin McCarthy, a partner at Mishcon and Chair of the Corporate Team and I will be hosting today’s event. Uh before I introduce todays guest there are some housekeeping points to mention; if you are online you’ve joined the session automatically on mute and without video. If you have a question you can use the Q&A function located at the bottom of your screen and I will pick this up. If you have any technical questions during this event, please feel free to let us know via the chat function and one of the Mishcon team will help you and if you are in the room, please just raise your hand. Uh, following the initial part of the talk, we will have some time for Q&A’s and Nicola has also kindly agreed to stay behind for a little time at the end to sign some copies of her book. So without any further ado, can I please introduce today’s guest, uh, Nicola Sturgeon. Uh, Nicola was leader of the SNP from 2014 to 2023 and that followed a period as Deputy First Minister from 2007 to 2014. She became the first female and is the longest serving First Minister of Scotland and brought Scotland to the brink of independence, overseeing the Yes Campaign in 2014. And she navigated her country through both Brexit and Covid. She continues as a member of the Scottish Parliament but has announced her intention not to stand for re-election in May 2026. Nicola, welcome to the Mishcon Academy.
Nicola Sturgeon
Thank you, thank you, it’s lovely to be here. Thanks for inviting me along.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
There’s been a lot of interviews, uh, following the publication of your book and I think I’ve seen some of these and they’ve asked a lot of the same questions and I’d quite like to try to move the discussion along a little bit from those same questions. Um, let me start by saying, you and I first met one another, uh, autumn of 1998 – it seems an awful long time ago.
Nicola Sturgeon
1988.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
88? (laughs) You are quite right. Uh, where we met at Glasgow University, starting our law degrees. We both came from the West of Scotland from a State education and I’d like to ask you two questions; one is, you know, why the, the decision to move into law but more importantly, um, what you make of your reflections now and, um, regarding, uh, social mobility and whether, that was a big issue then but also how you view that now?
Nicola Sturgeon
I mean, I since I was at, my mum and dad would say I was at primary school when I first, uh, articulated the ambition to be a lawyer and it was one of two ambitions I used to speak about back then. The other was I wanted to write children’s books, I wanted to be the next Enid Blyton, um, which clearly didn’t happen. Um, and the, the second of those was understandable because I was a really bookish kid, I, I read all the time so, you know, imagining myself maybe one day writing books was not a wild thing to do. The, the ambition to be a lawyer though was a bit more perplexing because I, I don’t think I knew any lawyers. I am not sure I would have been able to really articulate what being a lawyer meant and yet, this was what I wanted to do and I kind of stuck with it and, you know, as I got older I knew I wanted to go to Glasgow University. Nobody in my family had gone to University before so this was a massive thing to aspire to but that was my, you know, focus. That’s what I wanted to do and, and that’s what I did. I remember autumn 1988, setting foot in the Stair Building, the law school and feeling for a long while that I was completely out of my depth and completely, you know, in an alien environment and didn’t know whether I would be able to carry on and keep going, um, but, but I did. Uh, social mobility I think it’s better than it was back in those days. I mean, I think our year was one of the first when you are getting close to a majority of, of the students were, were female, um, but there was nowhere near, you know, a majority of, of people in the upper reaches or even the middling reaches of the legal profession were female. So there was a sense that, you know, while women were increasingly going into professions like law, we weren’t rising up the ranks. I think that has changed, or got better, um, certainly from a working class perspective. I guess there’s more people now even more so than, than back then, going into university which is a great thing, doing degrees like law but I think, I think we’ve still got a way to go on social mobility to have a society where you are generally, how you do in life is down to your talents and there is no sense that it’s your background or you’re connections or where you went to school that are the things, that still drive that. But I think on that front, things are better than they were.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And I recall that even then you were already interested and active in politics. Was that part of what was firing that interest at that time?
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah, I mean I got involved in politics, um, I was a bit of a weird teenager obviously, before I, I went to university I joined the SNP when I was, uh, in my final year at school, um, so by the time I got to university that involvement in the SNP was already established and it intensified I guess at uni when I got involved in student politics and yeah, I mean it was, what, what fired my political activism growing up where I did in a former mining community, from a working class background, you know, going to State school, a good State school but still one where going to university was an absolute rarity. It was not something that, that very many people did. I was growing up, as you were at the time, when unemployment was really high, there was a sense of, of lack of economic opportunities so I guess I was always driven by, by a personal desire to sort of extend beyond, you know, the, the boundaries of where I grew up. But a desire to see greater social and economic justice and, and a world where people could thrive based on talent rather than background or circumstances.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
You, you were doing quite a lot of things quite early and so in the book you talk about age 22, you turned up at a rally in George Square and you misjudged the mood and therefore you felt that your speech had misjudged the, the mood also. But you make an interesting observation and that is that you feel that the need to progress really requires compromise. Comprise is the word that you used. And I just wonder whether, you know, how you see that in today’s context. You see so much of, you know, global unrest and conflicts that seem completely intractable and whether you feel that despite, you know, what position you might instinctively take, it’s actually compromise that is required to unlock those things.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah, I mean I think that is one, um, aspect where we are regressing as a society and it’s not just a UK thing, um, although it is very much a thing in the UK. But this is a global, um, phenomenon where politics and, and public discourse generally is becoming much more polarised and so you are on one side or another and if you’re on, you know, one side you cannot find any common ground with somebody on the other side and, and I think that’s a real problem for democracy. Politicians of all stripes have to take a share of responsibility for that but, you know, throughout my political career there is much more compromise and, and collaboration behind the scenes in politics than people are, are aware of and that’s always been how things work and, you know, we argue in the fall of parliaments, we argue on television and in debates but, but still there’s a willingness and an ability to get together and work things through. I think we’re losing that right now.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And yet at the same time you say, for example, in relation to Donald Trump, you, you get frustrated by the amount of kowtowing that people somehow do, rather than, you know, where is the proper stand-up opposition to somebody like that.
Nicola Sturgeon
So I, I think it’s, I think it’s always going to be a combination of these things. I think in, in any democracy, any thriving democracy you need people that are, you know, going to stand for what they believe in, try to argue their corner, hopefully respectfully and, and civilly, uh, and, and not shy away from doing that but equally, not get themselves so, you know, into the trenches that they are not able to find common ground. And, and I think we, we’ve lost that balance of things where it is now much more the case that you, you, um, if you disagree with somebody on one big thing, you cannot possibly find areas to agree with them on. I think Trump, I think bringing Trump into this which is inevitable and unavoidable, probably sort of even further distorts this debate because, you know, he is a bit of a sort of a breed apart in terms of, of politicians and I think across the world right now, and, you know, I, if I was still in office I’d be struggling with this as well just now. I, I think there is just not yet, uh, an understanding or a, a sense of how best to deal with him to try to, you know, stand up for what you believe in, even if it’s running counter to, you know, what he is, is trying to, uh, put forward but still find a way of getting things done. So I think it’s either people are, you know, opposing him, you know, loudly and, and vocally and, and viscerally or they’re trying to sort of placate him and, and sort of gloss over, uh, the differences where in actual fact I think globally there needs to be a sort of middle ground there where there can be actually a lot of what he is doing in America, and speaking personally here, but despite many people will think this is not just wrong in principle, it is deeply and profoundly concerning for the future of, of American democracy which is, and probably always has been, much more fragile than any of us really appreciate, um, but also on the basis that what happens in America, very rarely stays in America, it’s got real implications for our democracy as well. There should be an ability to say that and to stand our ground for the sort of democratic values that I think most of us still believe in, um, while finding a way of, of working and getting things done. You know, take, my, one of my successors, there’s First Minister, John Sweeney is in America today trying, within all of these debates around politics that swirl around Trump, nevertheless trying to find some way forward to get a better tariff deal for Scotch Whiskey. Um, now whether that will work or not we have to wait and see but I just think that leaders everywhere are still trying to find their feet on how best to deal with somebody who, somebody who, whether you think this is a good thing or a bad thing, he doesn’t play by any of the conventional rules so, you just, the old ways of doing things, just don’t really cut it with him.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Can I speak to you about, I mean it is obviously impossible to have an interview with you and not speak for a while about independence, Scottish independence.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Um, but, but I guess my quest….
Nicola Sturgeon
I have been known to talk about it occasionally.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Yes, yes, I’ve heard this before, um, you, if we look back to the 2014 Referendum, um, and I am interested to know whether now with the benefit of where things stand now, you look on that as a missed opportunity or whether the fact of the swing away from that yes vote, the proportion of that, yes vote, actually indicates that the decision taken at that time was the correct and independence had it been delivered at that point, would in fact been a misstep.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah, I mean there hasn’t been a swing away from the yes vote. Support for independence now is higher than it was in 2014, it’s still, you know, like hovers around 50%, 45% and in the Referendum so, there hasn’t been a swing away from it. Amongst younger people in Scotland and you’ll possibly know this from your own sort of contacts back home, there is very, very strong support for independence. So I think…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
I would probably say on that front is that, that type of young vote for change has always been the case and actually unfortunately for something, um, people get older.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And as they get older, the dial starts to swing back and so…
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah. So, so far and it’s more than a decade now since the Referendum, the, the opinion poll for what it’s worth, suggests that that’s very, you know, conventional thing of people, you know, say people get more small c, conservative as they get older, they get less sort of radical and idealist when they get older and, you know, responsibilities of life kick in. So far in terms of the independence, but that’s not happening so, uh, the, the people who were 16 and voted yes in 2014 are, you know, 26/27 now and are still supporting and, and so it’s moving up the, the age spectrum. It’s, it’s what the polls are showing just now. Whether that continues to be the case, time will tell. In terms of loss, I mean obviously I think it was a lost opportunity, um, that’s not going to surprise you given, uh, my, my stance on the debate. I change my mind even all these years later, I, I still change my mind about whether if, you know, the campaign I was part of had just made a better argument on certain of the big issues at the heart of the debate, we might have, you know, just got it over the line versus on other days I think, actually we probably got it as far as we could in that moment because, you know, if you think back at the start of the independence, uh, Referendum support for yes was about 30% and we got it to 45%. Maybe in that moment in time that was as far as we could take it. So I don’t know why, I still chop and change my mind a little bit but that I maybe always will. I think, I think the demographics and, and you can look at Ireland just now, I’m not, um, an expert on public opinion in Ireland but I think you are seeing some of the same demographic trends for different reasons happening there. I think the demographics are leading Scotland to a point of being independent at some point in the future and, you know, I think for me, that’s a positive, I think it’s, in a turbulent world, I think the more you can chart your own course and control your own destiny the better. But I also believe, I mean, I’m an internationalist and I, I think sometimes it’s assumed that if you support Scottish independence you are kind of inward looking and want to sort of, you know, almost cut Scotland off from the world. That, that’s not the case, I would love us to be back in the European Union. I, I want Scotland to have a, a voice in the world. I think the relationships across, across the British Isles, I, I think could be much better and stronger and more constructive if there was more of a, a relationship of equals if we didn’t have a situation where, you know, just as an example, Scotland can find itself outside the EU even though by a significant margin, we, we wanted to stay in. So I, I think it’s a, I, I think and I make this prediction at the end of my book and again, time will tell whether I’m, uh, right or hopelessly wrong, but I think a sort of rewiring of the, the relationships across the British Isles, I think will happen over the next couple of decades. I think, I think Scotland will become independent. I think that will inevitably mean that Wales wants more autonomy. I, I think Scotland becoming independent and Wales more autonomous, of course by definition means more self-government for England, which I think, it’s not for me to, to say, but I think that could be healthy. I think the drivers are, are different, don’t necessarily hang and fall on the others but I, I think a, a unified Ireland at some point over the next couple of decades is more probable than not. And, you know, one of the reflections I often have, when I was First Minister I used to attend the British Irish Council, you know, one of the Institutions that came out of the, the Good Friday Agreement, the Northern Irish peace process and around the table the British Irish Council are, you know, the United Kingdom government, the Republic of Ireland, the devolved administrations, the crown dependencies and if the kind of rewiring that I am talking about comes to fruition, we are also round that table cooperating and collaborating. It’s just the status of, of the component parts and the relationships between them change, and in my view, change in a way that is potentially constructive and healthy so it’s, Scottish independence for me is not about separation, it’s not about, you know, pulling Scotland away from the world, it’s, it’s actually the opposite. Being able to, you know, control our own, uh, fate at home but play a part, hopefully a constructive part, in the British Isles and beyond.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Yeah, I mean, you make a really interesting point about internationalism and it’s a question which is more to do with the individual that I am ask rather than necessarily the country but, I, I’ve always believed that Scots, and it’s not just Scots, it’s like nationals who live outside their own country come to have a perhaps, certainly more rounded but perhaps a better understanding of their country for the fact that they, they actually look at it from, from a different perspective. And it applies not just to how they look at their country but also how they consider themselves, perhaps more confidently etcetera. Um, and I guess my question is, as somebody who has never left Scotland to live, whether perhaps you have a more parochial view of Scotland than you would have had, had you spent time outside understanding better how the world regards Scotland.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of agree with the premise of your question, so I don’t want to kind of immediately say there’s some arguing against that. I, I don’t think it’s…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
But you will.
Nicola Sturgeon
No, I, I think, I’m probably going to unusually for a politician, and the kind of person who is usually, you know, injecting the pejorative language into debate, um, I don’t think it’s, I think while you’re right about people who leave Scotland and look at, or leave any country and look at it from the outside. I don’t think it then follows that people who never do that are parochial or, you know, have an insular view or don’t understand the world. I think that, I think’s where people in Scotland, I’m not talking about you obviously, um, sometimes feel slightly patronised by, you know, people who’ve moved away and, you know, the, the, there’s a feeling that there’s then this kind of superiority complex that they’re more sophisticated and understand the world better, so, I think, I think we’ve just got to be care… both, both of those perspectives, they’re different, they’re valid and the kind of meshing of them and the intermingling of them of them is probably where we get the best view overall. I’ve, you know, in, in the couple of weeks since I, I published the book, I, like I’ve been talking a bit about, you know, when I stand down from Parliament next year, of me moving out of Scotland for, not forever, but for a period. And actually for that reason. Because I’ve never…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
To join the London dinner party set.
Nicola Sturgeon
I’m not sure I’ll be all that comfortable in the London dinner party set. Whatever that is. You, if you want to invite me to the London dinner party set then…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
I’m not sure my dinner parties are the ones they were talking about but anyway.
Nicola Sturgeon
But do you know what, I, yeah that’s the reference in there. Um, maybe London, maybe not London. I, you know, I don’t know but, but at that point I’ve, because of the career I’ve pursued, I’ve never had the opportunity to live outside of Scotland and I think it would be healthy from my perspect… I don’t think I am parochial for not having lived outside of Scotland but I think my perspective would benefit from a period of looking, uh, into the country from outside. So I think that, that’s a long-winded way of saying, I, I kind of agree with you but I think that care has got to be taken not to make that argument sound a bit condescending to people who, you know, most people who are born in a country, live in that country all their life. It’s, it’s a relatively small number of people who will move away and I think, yeah, talk about the virtues of that and the benefits of that but just, I think we need to take care not to sort of, you know, be patronising to people who stay at home and do all the work that needs to be done and tries to build the country.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Sure. Can I talk to you about your relationship with Alex Salmon.
Nicola Sturgeon
Yep.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Um, I mean...
Nicola Sturgeon
I mean we could be here for a long time but yeah.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Are you sure? Um, it’s actually a very pointed question I want to ask because, I mean obviously, you and he were kind of, very, very influential people, working together and, and in some respects actually in the book in the way that I hadn’t realised, your relationship clearly ebbed and flowed, two very, very different types of character in terms of how you approach, um, the job. I mean, it still beggars belief, if indeed true, that he hadn’t read the white paper, um…
Nicola Sturgeon
No it’s true.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
…and, and at the same time your approach is one of you can’t do enough and so once you’ve read it, you read it again and so it goes. Um, but, but the question I want to ask is, you considered, especially following his death last year, whether it was actually appropriate to leave the chapter in the book and whether to address the whole, kind of, allegation side of things at all. Um, and yet you decided to do that. I am just interested to hear a little bit about why you chose to go that way rather than, what you were also considering and that was perhaps not to do so?
Nicola Sturgeon
Um, I mean, I don’t know how much people are aware of the background to all of this so I may be talking at a level that is assuming, uh, knowledge that isn’t there but Alex and I were, you know, very close political partnership for many years. Certain allegations were made, uh, against him, sexual misconduct allegations. He was acquitted of criminal conduct, uh, but there was still, you know, that sort of sense that he hadn’t necessarily always behaved in the way that he should have done towards women. Um, so that’s the background. You know, he kind of wanted me, when it first came to light, he kind of wanted me to help him. I was First Minister at the time, so make it all go away and I wouldn’t do that so, he fell out with me and the rest is history. Had, at the point he died, um, it had all been history, I probably would have left it alone. I, I don’t want to constantly have to, you know, go over what was a really painful episode in, in my life. I went through, you know, like almost a kind of grieving process when our relationship broke down and then again when, when he died. But the reason I, I wouldn’t have been true to myself to do that is because right up until the moment he died, he was alleging that what happened was all some great conspiracy against him, you know, a conspiracy that must have involved, you know, a number of women making allegations for what motivation I don’t know. The police, the Crown Office, senior ministers, civil servants, that I was part of this and he was still alleging that because obviously he felt it easier to believe that than to candidly accept that maybe his behaviour had fallen short. Associates of his, supporters of his, to this day, still accuse me of that and, you know, there’s rarely a week goes by in Scotland when somebody on his behalf is saying that I orchestrated this conspiracy against him and that’s why he ended up accused of these things. Um, I still to this day don’t understand what my motive for that was, was meant to have been, um, but it’s not true and had I just decided to stay silent, I would implicitly have been kind of accepting that version of events. It was important to me, I think it, I hope it’s important to others who were really hurt by both conspiracy allegations, um, to lay out what actually happened and that’s what I’ve done in the book and I would love to have been able to draw a line under it and not go into all of that, but when you’re still on a weekly basis, hearing these accusations, then I think, I think I have a right and I think I almost had a duty to set out, and I tried to do it forensically, I tried to do it as dispassionately as I can to set out the facts of the matter and what was actually the case.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Yeah, thank you. Um, so taking things a step back again, as a lawyer who also became, and is a politician. Um, those two worlds of politics and law are actually very, very closely connected. Um, and so, for example, when I think about Mishcon as a firm, we are a firm who’ve often been at the forefront of that intersection, so decriminalising, uh, homosexuality, that was something we were very much involved in. Likewise, challenges to the Brexit process, twice over, we were heavily involved in that. Um, more recently, pursuing legal action for a Pardon for Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be hanged in Britain. These are things which this, as a firm, have been, been very much involved in but you too have also been very active, I think, in that intersection between law and politics. So I think about the work that you did to attempt to repeal Section 28, um, your work in relation to Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights, um, and perhaps one of the more high profile issues to do with gender identification and the Scottish approach to that, um, I am particularly interested to hear what your views are, I mean, I know what they are, but a bit more detail in relation to the Supreme Court’s judgment along, um, those lines where effectively, um, they ruled on the binary nature of sex, um, and what your views in relation to that are and how it interacts with what Scotland was trying to do.
Nicola Sturgeon
I mean, you say the Scottish approach and just to, I guess, pick up on that first of all. Scotland wasn’t doing something, you know, wasn’t being ground breaking on this, you know, the legislation that passed through the Scottish Parliament and, you know, was voted for by people in all parties, um, and had, was the genesis of was, you know, a very strong cross party consensus originally has been on the statute book in the Republic of Ireland for a decade, it’s been on the statute book of several countries around the world, so it wasn’t, we weren’t taking a Scottish approach and trying to do something nobody had ever done before and I think that’s context that’s sometimes lost. Um, on the Supreme Court, I mean, firstly I, I’m a, you know, as you would expect, not just because I’m a lawyer because I think every democratic politician should say this and the fact that this is actually now a controversial statement probably tells us a lot about the state of, of politics and, and democracy these days. But I believe fundamentally in the rule of law. So whatever I think of an issue, what a Court decides the law is, is what the law is and I know politicians should argue against that. That is not the same thing as saying that you should not then say, well if that’s what the Supreme Court says the law is, then that is what the law is but I, I think the law shouldn’t be that and therefore I want to try to change that law. And I think that is perfectly, uh, legitimate and that’s how, you know, politics progress, that’s how change happens as people make a case to change the law. I mean, that’s a general statement, uh, not just about the, the trans ruling. On that, look I, I believe, and people can agree or disagree, I, I, I’ve fought for women’s rights all my life, I will fight for women’s rights until the day I die. I also think it’s important and I will also always do this, stand up for respect and dignity of minorities who face a lot of discrimination and, and stigma and trans people probably face more of that than most other people in, in life. And I think what we need to try to get to as a society and I, actually until the last few years, I think you could say we were already there in many respects. Trans people have always existed, they haven’t just been created in the last few years and always will exist. We need to get to a place where, women’s rights can be protected, that’s really important, and enhanced, uh, but trans people can live with dignity and my concern about the, the Supreme Court ruling, and I don’t again say that, that is the law because they say it’s the law and they are the highest Court in the land, is that the way we are reacting to that, and we collectively as, as a country, seems to be trying to always make trans lives very difficult to live in dignity and I, I don’t think that’s what we should do. So I think we should all take a step back and say, how do we achieve two things that I don’t think are irreconcilable, you know, women’s rights. The, the threat to women through my lifetime and for generations before I was born comes from abusive men and, you know, yes you will get some abusive men who try to attach themselves to other communities, like the trans community being one of them but we deal with the, deal with the bad people in any group in society, don’t tarnish the entire group. So let’s try and get to a position where we have women’s rights protected but we also allow trans people to live with respect and dignity and maybe, maybe I’m just a hopeless, naïve, optimist, uh, but I don’t believe that is beyond us and it shouldn’t be beyond us. It might involve all of us dialling down the rhetoric and maybe a bit of dialling down the rhetoric in all sorts of issues would us all the world of good right now, um, but I think we can get there, um.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
An issue like that, where views are held so dearly and fundamentally is that, for example, an area where compromise as a solution, going back to what we discussed earlier or is that…
Nicola Sturgeon
Compromise has got to be a solution. I mean this is, I think what we’ve lost. Over my time in politics is that your compromise doesn’t and shouldn’t mean abandoning your principles. It means, you know, people come in at issues from different perspectives, finding where there can be common ground and yes, I believe we need compromise on all sorts of issues and, but there’s got to be, there’s got to be a willingness to find that and I think what, on all sorts of debates right now, and I’m not, you know, I’ve been a politician for 30 years, I’ve had my share of responsibility for this. What we’ve lost is that willingness to get out of our respective trenches and find the common ground and until we get that back, it’s going to be really difficult to make progress on some of these controversial issues. Particularly so, and, and whenever I say this on the trans issue, I get howls of, you know, people of misrepresent what I mean. I don’t mean that people who disagree with me are, are all, you know, transphobes or, or misogynists or sexist or racist or whatever but, debates like this one, and I, it still, you know, defies my belief in my part that even people the other side of this debate from me can’t see this reality. Debates like this one are deliberately being stirred up by people who, they do have malign motives, who want to not just to roll back on trans rights but want to roll back on women’s rights and, and, you know, gay rights and rights for minority communities, you know, there’s one of the big ironies at the heart of the trans debate, is some of the most vocal anti-trans people you will find, uh, will also be wanting to take away abortion rights for women, you know, will be against women’s rights and other, we will want to see women back in the, you know, the kitchen where they belong kind of thing and that’s not tarring everybody with that brush. Of course not, not even the majority. But if we can’t see the malign influences at work in some of these issues right now, then are being wilfully blind. And we’ve got to understand that.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Can I pick up on that. So, so in the book you talk a lot about women’s pla, women’s place in politics and there’s a frustration, if not even an anger that sort of pervades some of, um, how you view, how women are treated in a way that men wouldn’t be treated in the same circumstance.
Nicola Sturgeon
That’s not, that’s not a political thing Kevin, that’s a, I mean, there’s many women in this room who can speak for themselves and experiences in the legal profession. But I don’t know that there’s, I hope it’s a lot better today than it was in my younger days but it’s not a politics thing, it’s a societal thing. Women are judged differently, treated differently in many, many respects, you know, in politics that will, you know, range from much more focus and criticism of what you wear and how you look, you know, women get judged on the tone of their voice. Characteristics that in men are seen as positives and attributes, in women are seen as, you know. So if, if you’re, if you’re really decisive as a male politician, you’re a strong leader. If you’re really decisive as, as a woman politician, you tend to be bossy and not a team player and, and you can take these example and spread them, probably in every walk of life, and, and that’s a reality.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
But in a way Nicola, it, it’s actually your own position that I wanted to focus on because one of the interesting things you say is in the context of your pregnancy, um, and in the lead up to what was an election. You, you questioned yourself whether a heavily pregnant Nicola would actually be able to perform and land in the way. And so in some respects, you were, you were asking that question of yourself and I guess my…
Nicola Sturgeon
No, I was asking it of the public. I genuinely to this day, I don’t know the answer to that. This was…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Well that’s my question.
Nicola Sturgeon
This was 2010, so not that long ago but, you know, easy to forget that it was nevertheless a time when no senior woman in politics had given birth in office. We hadn’t had Jacinda Ardern or you know, there’s a few others now, um, so I had no idea how, you know, if I had been, if I hadn’t had a miscarriage, I’d have been six months pregnant at an election campaign. I was the deputy leader of my party, my country, standing for re-election myself, you know, leading, helping lead my party to election campaign. I didn’t know how that would be viewed but obviously there were other anxieties, would I cope physically? You know, election campaigns are, are not for the fainthearted, they, they’re tough things to go through. So, yes that was, that was about me and my doubts and insecurities but that was me reflecting a sort of sense of not knowing how society was going to, and I, I suspect there will be many more woman than you realise will have had these thoughts about, you know, the, their own careers and their own jobs about, at these moments in their life and I think, I think on that front, it has got better but across a whole range of things, women are judged differently. Now you might say, well fine, we are different so that, that’s okay but, but it’s a reality that women are judged differently to men and there’s a very gendered assessment of, of things, certainly in politics but I, I really don’t believe that is unique to politics.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Can I move on and speak a little bit about the Covid and the Pandemic. Um, I think I’m not alone in believing that actually you came out of the process, that whole period with your reputation in hand. People felt that, and I speak from my own circle of friends in Scotland for example, they, they would say that you spoke with a, a clarity and a compassion and, and a transparency, you know, daily about how things were going in a way that perhaps was not always the case elsewhere and within, within the UK. Um, and yet at the same time you then came in for quite strong questioning and criticism during the, the enquiry and I know that that landed with you very, very hard and the question that I want to ask about is, a very specific one, and that is, after that event and because of the toll that it had taken on you, you decided to seek therapy and I think that’s something that a lot of people find very difficult to do, to take that step and seek professional help. And I am just interested in, you know, not necessarily the background as to what had triggered it but the steps within yourself, the thought process within yourself that took you from this strong, you know, forthright politician to somebody who decided to go and seek professional help in relation to where you found yourself.
Nicola Sturgeon
I mean, I, I, I just realised I was in a pretty bad place and, um, thought that I should do something about it because I didn’t think it was irretrievable or, you know, I, I thought it was, for the first time in my life, I needed some help to get myself from the kind of pet that I had fallen into, to back onto an even keel and, um, I, you know, like you, grew up in the West of Scotland, you know, these are not easy things…
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
We don’t talk about these things.
Nicola Sturgeon
We don’t and, and you are conditioned to think that seeking help for, you know, that kind of thing, is a sign of weakness. When it’s not actually, it’s probably the opposite, it’s probably doing that is actually, you know, taking a step that is about strong, you know, being strong and so, you know, that’s basically and I am glad I did. I didn’t, in doing it I was, I suppose I was just, I need to try and do something because I’m not, I’ve always been able to lift myself out of, you know, difficult times or, you know, things that I’ve, you know, had been struggling with in life and in that moment I felt I couldn’t and, and I didn’t know if speaking to somebody would help. It did, and, you know, it didn’t actually take very long to get me back into a better place, that doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t miraculously resolve everything that, you know, has brought you there but it certainly helped me cope with it and I would say, you know, I think as a society we, we need to, and again I think it’s night and day now to how it was when I was younger. I just think we need to be much more open about just like, physical health. Sometimes you need to get proper, qualified help. With mental health I think that is equally true and, you know, we need to be much more open about it.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
In the book you actually go into quite a lot of really quite private stuff. I mean, you talk about your own experiences of workplace bullying, you talk about your own sexuality, you talk about baby loss. I mean these are big things that you choose to address within the book and, and you say that part of the reason, the primary reason for doing that is because in, in broaching those subjects and discussing about them, you feel that there is an ability to then re-draw the boundary and close. And I just wonder whether if you go to these places willingly, is it actually ever possible to then does, you know, hope to close the curtains again and that’s it.
Nicola Sturgeon
I think, I think maybe not and time will tell, um, but I guess that question kind of assumes that I, I had that kind of privacy anyway and, and I’ve opened it up so I can’t close it down again. Part of the reason for doing it is, you know, you’re outside looking in as we’ve established but, you know, in Scotland, um, my, my life is talked about all, and I don’t, I’m not complain about it, I put myself into the public eye but you know, my life is talked about, it is often caricatured, you know, there are versions of my life I have read about in the media over the years that frankly, bear no relation to the reality so this was my opportunity to tell my story and give a version of my life, or not a version, give my life in my own words and, and to then, you know, in, in some ways I’m writing this book at a transition point of my life and, and then yeah, so people can, can read the book, all these things that they’ve had the media version of, you can, if you want to now read it in my words and from now on, I, I’m not naïve enough to think that I’ll just be able to live entirely anonymously and privately but I can pick and choose now what I choose to talk about openly and what I, I don’t. And, and yes, that is a right I am going to exercise and yeah, the media or section so the media might not easily respect that but I still think I’m going to have a go at doing it.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Um, there’s a lot of self-criticism in the book and there’s a lot of…
Nicola Sturgeon
Not enough according to some of my critics.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Well, lots of self-criticism, lots of red wine and lots of tears. Um, and, and…
Nicola Sturgeon
I’ve always been one of life’s great criers.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Well it’s interesting, so, you know, I guess my question is, I think again I know the answer, but, you know, do you feel that perhaps you were not as robust or, were, were you already critical of yourself or were you perhaps not as robust as you might have been or…
Nicola Sturgeon
Do you know, I, I, um, the thing about very senior politicians who, you know, everybody thinks they know and to some extent do know, but don’t know everything. We’re all fundamentally, this is the most controversial statement I’ll ever utter. Politicians are also just human and, and sometimes that gets overlooked, that gets missed and, you know, the, the media versions are what people think is, is the reality. We’re all a bit flawed, we’re all a bit fragile at times, we’re all a bit vulnerable at times and maybe politics would be a bit better if, not if we just all start crying all the time, but there was just more of a recognition that, you know, people who lead parties, lead countries, lead government departments are human beings that make mistakes, that try to learn from those mistakes and, and I just think the state of politics might be better if we, if we recognised that. Um, and there is a sense in politics that you have to always put forward this absolutely kind of steely, in control of it. And I tried to do that as well but, but behind that at some point everybody will, will struggle and maybe just a bit more recognition of that would help, would help all of us. So I don’t, no I don’t agree I wasn’t robust enough. I think I was pretty robust but nobody is utterly immune from all the things that, that go on and in life, um, and I don’t think I am too self-critical. I think it is important, uh, I didn’t want to write a book about my life and career that just, like a lot of political memoirs do frankly, that just says, wasn’t I great and didn’t I do everything right and you know. I wanted to write something that was a bit more open, a bit more candid, a bit more human I guess and, and that’s what I’ve tried to do and you know what now, and there’s a sense of, you know, release and liberation and putting it out there as well now because well, there it is, that’s my life in my words, um, and I, I’m obviously subjective about my own life but there you go, we all are. Um, my life has intersected with this incredibly momentous period in the history of my country and I’ve had an incredibly privileged, you know, vantage point in all of that. So it’s a story of my life, it’s, it’s a snapshot of the country over the course of my life and, and I hope it’s open, I hope it’s readable. I hope people learn something they didn’t know before and if, if, for the people who hate me and have an immovable view of me, um, then that’s fine. You know, I’m never going to change your mind but for those who, you know, want to maybe understand a bit more about these events that have played out across the media, then hopefully it offers something.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
So, so the book is a story of your life to this point.
Nicola Sturgeon
Mm.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And I guess it begs the question, what does the future hold for Nicola Sturgeon, um, you know, people are interested. I’m interested to hear where and what you think you might be doing from this point.
Nicola Sturgeon
So I, and I stand down from Parliament in a few months’ time, next spring. I have got various different things that, you know, I’m a, working on just now that you will possibly hear about in the fullness of time and, you know, I’m not going to go into them right now because they are all still at a fairly early stage. I’d love to write more. I enjoyed writing this book. I think it’s the kind of book, even though I am still only, I hope kind of roughly midway point in my life. I don’t think I’ll ever write another book like this, um, you’ll be glad to know. But I, I’m a great reader of, of fiction. I’d love to try my hand at writing a novel and who knows, I might not be able to do it but I’d, I’d love to do that. You know, I care a lot about the state of Scotland, the UK, the world, lots of issues I feel really passionate about, you know, the state of the climate, women’s rights, you know, the prospects and opportunities of young people and, so everything I’m thinking about doing, they’re all kindly roughly in that kind of space and I am looking forward to it and you know, hopefully I’ll be able to unveil some of it in due course.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
I suspect we haven’t heard the last so I’m… on, on that note, maybe we bring this part of the session to a close and we can open things to the floor. So we have one roving mike, I will try to make sure that people have the mike in hand before, uh, before they speak. We also have an online chat function which questions are coming through from those who are online.
Mishcon Online
Questions online, Nicola the first question which will probably be the toughest question you are going to get today. Celtics or Rangers?
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Celtic or Rangers.
Mishcon Online
Celtic or Rangers, sorry I sound…
Nicola Sturgeon
Neither. Rangers is situated in my constituency so I am the member of the Scottish Parliament for Rangers Football Club. Um, (a) I’m not a massive football fan but my team, um, which I was brought up by my father to always give this answer, is Ayr United so.
Mishcon Online
Okay, there we go, thank you.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Although I did read with some interest that you had a, a wry smile on your face at some point when England weren’t doing so well.
Nicola Sturgeon
I, I’m a huge, um, Lionesses supporter. Um, and that’s my getting that in before telling the story. There was, it was just after Brexit actually, the President of Ireland was over visiting and him and I were at, we were at this concert in the, the Glasgow Concert Hall, sort of Celtic music concert and this was 2016, it was during the Euro, European Championships at the time.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Yeah.
Nicola Sturgeon
That night England was playing Iceland in Iceland I think or wherever it, wherever the competition was being held. Anyway, England unfortunately lost to Iceland that night and as Michael D Higgins, the President and I were getting into a lift after this event, somebody told us the football score and all I say is, we had a tiny little moment of kind of Celtic gloating. Um, but that was as far as it went.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
You see now, if you move to London…
Nicola Sturgeon
Are you telling me now Kevin, that you have moved so far away from your roots that you now support England at football?
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
So what’s the next question, Kerry?
Mishcon Online – Kerry
I heard he was a Spurs fan now. Uh, okay the next question is, how can sexism in politics perpetuated by mainstream media be tackled?
Nicola Sturgeon
Um, that’s a really good question. I don’t think there’s a simple answer. I think we still need to see more women in politics. I think the kind of every day sexism that’s not just from the media but comes from all quarters, needs to be tackled and, and challenged and constantly called out. I, and it’s really important that that is not just the responsibility of women to do. I, I think for you know, women’s equality to really, uh, reach where we need it to be, we need men to stand up and challenge and call out sexism as well, uh, when they see it. And I, I think the bigger problem that I don’t know the answer to, and it’s not just a problem for, for women’s rights, I, I think we need to find some way of, of getting to a better place around social media and how all of that operates and, you know, get the advantages of social media, because it has many, while dealing better with the, the very considerable downside of it which is toxifying the sort of political and public sphere for everybody but I think particularly for women and minorities.
Mishcon Online – Kerry
Thank you. I’ll pass it back for those in the room.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
So we’re going to ask for some questions from the room now. So can we have hands for any questions that we may have. Um, so can we come here first and then second, we’ll go to the back of the room.
Audience
Um, the SNP lost a number of their Westminster seats in the last election. I was just going to ask you about the reasons behind that and how do you think the SNP can rebuild if they can?
Nicola Sturgeon
Thank you, um, I mean I think Scottish politics has moved on quite a lot since then, you know, we are eight months’ away from a, a Scottish Parliament election and I wouldn’t take anything for granted a, you know, reform are, are making inroads into Scottish politics in a way that I wouldn’t have believed just a few years ago. So I, I think there’s big issues there but I don’t think there’s many people right now who would bet against the SNP winning the Scottish Parliament election next year um, which is quite extraordinary after, you know, how, almost two decades in, in government. Um, in, in terms of the Westminster election last year, you know, many different factors obviously denting support for the SNP. I think more fundamentally there was a sense, obviously UK wide, given the outcome of the election last year that a change of government was needed, the people wanted to see the, the back of the Tory’s for a variety of different reasons. That was the feeling in Scotland as well and the sense that voting Labour to get the Tory’s out and get a change of government was, was the way to do that and I think that is the, the fundamental thing that happened. I think there’s a lot of buyer’s regret now. I don’t know, I can’t speak people elsewhere in the UK but in Scotland I think there’s a lot of buyer’s regret and a sense of, you know, Labour not having lived up in any way to the, the hope or the expectations that people had when, when they voted. Which is why, you know, things have turned again to the point that I started my answer with but, I think, final point on this, and this has changed since my younger days in politics when political alignment was very fixed. I joined the SNP when we were not the force we are today and always seemed like we were, you know, trying to, you know, eat into that kind of impregnable Labour support that, that went down generations. You know, I vote Labour because my, my parent’s voted Labour and my grandparents voted Labour. Political loyalty was very ingrained. We now live in a, in an era where that’s not the case where, you know, there’s a lot of political volatility. People will vote one way in one election and another way, and I think that’s a challenge to, to all politicians that you can’t take things for granted um, so while I’m saying the SNP will win the election next year, and the polls suggest that, I think we’d be daft to assume that that would be the case. We really, all of us in politics and about to leave obviously, but need to constantly be making the case for why we are, we, we have the answers to the, the challenges people are facing.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Thank you. We have a question from over here.
Audience
Uh, you just touched on it but do you think Reform Scotland could get the kind of support and maybe even potential electoral breakthrough that might happen in England?
Nicola Sturgeon
Um, so the short answer to that is yes I think they potentially could um, Reform’s levels of support in Scotland are, generally, I mean obviously there will be pockets of the country where this is, is different but on average Reform’s level of support is lower in Scotland than it is across England. But it is still much higher than anybody would have predicted, even a year or eighteen months ago and there is also the, the added factor that we have a proportional representation system um, for the Scottish Parliament election so I think right now, I think it would be very, very difficult to see a situation where Reform do not have a quite significant clutch of MSP’s in Holyrood after next year. How big that is, I think remains to be seen. You know, Nigel Farage is, uh, what’s the right term to use here? He is exploit…, I don’t mean what’s the right term to use for Nigel Farage, I would not be that rude in a, in a public, uh, forum. I mean, what, what, he is, he is tapping into, you know, real problems that people are feeling. Real, you know, anxieties and concerns that people have, you know, the economy, living standards, the state of public services across the UK right now are, you know, these are real problems that people, people experience so, I think you, while he’s tapping into that I think the is being disingenuous in his explanation for the reasons for it and, and in terms of solutions. The problem with this, whatever you think about the right levels of immigration, you know, all the problems of this country are not caused by immigrants. On the contrary, you know, immigrants do a lot of very important jobs in our, our country.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
To that extent, do you welcome the exposure that, that would give them? I mean, to some extent…
Nicola Sturgeon
Give who?
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Well, Reform for example. They, they suddenly have…
Nicola Sturgeon
I, I’d rather, well I’d, I’d rather they weren’t elected but, you know, I think, I think they need more exposure and more scrutiny now frankly and, and that’s for the media to do. Um, and if people vote for them in an open eyed way, that’s, that’s different but I, I think, the point I’m making is I think those who don’t want to see Reform elected have to not counter Reform by just saying, well they’re bad people and anybody who votes for them are obviously bad people and racist and all the rest of it. There’s got to be a recognition of the, the factors that are driving that support and people from a different part of the political spectrum than Nigel Farage have to offer the compelling solutions and I hope that can happen, that can happen across the UK. If the General Election in the UK was tomorrow, Farage is, would be Prime Minister. And that’s, in my, from my perspective, the really, really bad news. The really, really good news is that the election is not tomorrow and so, there’s, you know, there’s time for those who don’t want to see that happen to, to start taking on his arguments and his, uh, approach to things and winning. In my view you don’t do that by kind of trying to ape him or you know, tell him, yeah, yeah you’re right on immigration and we’ll just be tougher on it. You, you need to make an argument for the kind of system you want to see, the benefits that immigration bring to the country. Yes there’s problems in the system, fix those but that goes back to an argument I made earlier on where a thriving democracy needs people to be prepared to stand up and argue and win arguments on the strength of their, their own, uh, case and I hope that is what happens and I hope that we will see over the next couple of years the Reform threat receded but, it’s an open question at the moment.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Question over here.
Audience
Hi, um, I was just wondering, uh, how you feel about the possibility of the British Open being hosted at Trump Turnberry?
Nicola Sturgeon
Of what, sorry?
Audience
The British Open, the golf British Open being hosted at Trump Turnberry?
Nicola Sturgeon
I, I would, you see the thing about, um, almost being out of frontline politics is I am almost so close to being able to give an answer that I don’t really care. Um, I, I mean it’s, you know, the, the irony of what it is that decides, I, I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. It may well happen in the future. Turnberry is a fantastic golf course so I think in many respects it would be, you know, great to, to see the, the championship happen there but obviously there’s lots of issues and even if I am not quite at the point of saying, I don’t care, I am definitely at the point of saying, you know, it’s nothing to do with me so, I don’t really have to get into the, the realms of it. Uh, my interactions with Trump were much more around his other golf course in Scotland, so the one up in, near Aberdeen. Uh, when I first became First Minister, he, way before he was President or a bit before he was President, I used to get through the post what I can only describe as kind of green ink letters from him about the evils of wind power where he would just send me, uh, sort of cuttings from newspapers about, you know, how wind power was killing everybody and he would, he would write in the margins sort of things like, crazy – exclamation mark, or, mad – exclamation mark. I mean, I don’t know whether he was describing himself or whatever but anyway, um, and he took, he took the Scottish government to Court to try to stop the, the wind farm off the coast of Aberdeen which he claimed was spoiling the view from his golf course. Um, and lost every stage, all the way to the Supreme Court and so.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And it’s the law.
Nicola Sturgeon
And it’s the law, it’s law that Donald Trump was wrong.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
So, at that point in the book you also said that he was at pains to invite you for dinner as soon as possible, with others, was it family or what.
Nicola Sturgeon
I was to bring my family too.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Was it not, regardless of what you thought of it, is it not really tempting just to say, yeah let’s do that.
Nicola Sturgeon
It was really tempting, so this was when I had a conver, phone conversation with him between his first election and inauguration, so he was President Elect at the time. I think it was December 2016 or thereabouts and I had this phone conversation. He was on a Trump aeroplane at the time and I was in my constituency office in Govern Hill, um, so a bit of a, a disparity there. Um, and it was, it was just, people will often say to me, you know, what’s Boris Johnson really like or, what’s Donald Trump really like? And you kind of think, well they’re like what you see and so with Trump this conversation was just a monologue that, that was sort of, um, I slightly paraphrase it in the book but I can go through, it started with, yeah my mother was Scottish, best mother anybody’s ever had. Great country, uh, apart from your mad obsession with wind power, um, have you seen how the economy is doing, uh, best stock market ratings of any President, best poll ratings, and I interjected at one point to ask him if, you know, his sons were going to take over his Scottish businesses now that he’s President, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve got the greatest sons anybody’s ever had, um, so it was all this kind of stuff and then he said, um, when, when I’m in the Whitehouse, at which point he seemed to say to somebody sitting next to him, when is that? When I’m in the Whitehouse come and visit, bring your family. So I did, it was very tempting just to get my mum and my dad and just turn up on the front lawn of the Whitehouse, knock on the door and say, we’re here. Donald said to visit so. I suspect we might have got sniper treatment.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
I think we’ve got time for one last question.
Audience
Thank you Nicola. You’ve been a lawyer turn politician. How important was that for your career and there are now some politicians turn lawyer consultants, like David Cameron. Are you going to follow in his footsteps?
Nicola Sturgeon
Uh, no I don’t think, I’m not going back to the law, un, I’m pretty certain about that, um, and consultancy doesn’t really, you know, I’m not knocking it, I’m not knocking anybody who does it, it’s not what I think would get me jumping out of bed in the morning. Um, so I don’t think that, that’s the path I will take but, you know, who knows what life holds in the future. Um, in terms of the, the sort of law, Kevin touched on this, the kind of law politics, um, access. I mean there is definitely, it is definitely, there is a lot of lawyers in politics, um, and it’s definitely the case that a legal training, uh, does give you skills or, you know, kind of mind sets that are helpful in politics. So I don’t think it’s an accident that lots of lawyers find their way in to, to politics. So I, I didn’t practice law for very long at all, um, but I do think I got a lot from my legal training, uh, that stood me in good stead in what I did choose to do in life.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
Thank you. So I think, uh, we’ve reached the end of the session. Um, can I thank you for coming along to the Academy.
Nicola Sturgeon
Most welcome.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And wish you all the very best with the book.
Nicola Sturgeon
Thank you.
Kevin McCarthy
Partner, Mishcon de Reya
And can I invite everyone else to join in a round of applause for our guest, Nicola.
[applause]