Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Good morning and welcome to Jazz Shapers, with me Elliot Moss bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guests today I am very pleased to say are Alice and Ben in that order we’ve ascertained, that Alice Wainwright and Ben Charalambous, Co-Founder of Rise, a BCorp certified coffee subscription club which we will be finding out what that is when it’s at home, literally at home. Missing their morning coffee trip during the Covid 19 lockdown, Alice and Ben found themselves overwhelmed by the many origins, roast types and brands available online. Frustrated by the lack of sustainable, ethical coffee options on supermarket shelves and finding supermarket beans often stale and bitter, they decided to set up their own business to solve these problems. Entrance stage left, Rise Coffee, the multi-brand coffee subscription club was launched in 2020 bringing sustainably source, freshly roasted coffee from two independent roasters every month to your doorstep with 1% of all sales going to their Friendly Coffee Fund – what a lovely name – which supports coffee growing communities.
It’s so nice to meet you both.
Alice Wainwright
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
I love having two for the price of one. Not that you do two for the price of one although I’ve noticed when I went online that if you get four bags, it’s better value than if you get one.
Alice Wainwright
It is.
Elliot Moss
Which is great. You met on a, on a dating website.
Ben Charalambous
Yes,
Elliot Moss
Am I allowed to say that.
Ben Charalambous
You are yeah.
Elliot Moss
Excellent, I just did.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Just before lockdown and somehow or other here we are 5 years later with this business. How did this cockamamie idea begin? What happened?
Ben Charalambous
Yeah, it’s a bit of a crazy whirlwind story really. We met, was it 2 weeks, 2 to 3 weeks before the first lockdown on a dating app. Got locked down together and within about 3 months we had a puppy, we had a business and we were just enjoying, enjoying the start of lockdown really in some ways.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah I think none of us could have imagined when we first met that everything would change so much so quickly and obviously nobody saw a lockdown coming but the business idea really just came out of the blue and then once we had that idea it just took off like a train leaving the station and before we knew it we actually had launched the business and we were in deep with lots to do.
Elliot Moss
And when you same it came out of the blue Alice, you know, we all know in life nothing quite comes out the blue. You worked in advertising at the time.
Alice Wainwright
Yes.
Elliot Moss
Some fine advertising agencies as my first career and Ben, I think you were a commercial director in a property company and all that.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
I mean kind of, you know, proper jobs.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
How then did this coming out of the blue really happen right at the beginning? I am not getting the right coffee, let’s go and set up a business, I mean really?
Alice Wainwright
Yeah so…
Elliot Moss
It sounds slightly, I mean that’s a big decision to take.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah absolutely, I mean we were working really hard but obviously lockdown so we were at home all the time and one day we were sat outside our flat on the step looking at all the different deliveries coming and going to all our neighbours across the street and we said, oh we’d really love to have a delicious flat white from a lovely café in London that we were missing um, you know as we walked into work so we looked online to find some coffee, a coffee subscription to get coffee to our door and we were really just overwhelmed by the amount of choice and we found that coffee in general was quite pretentious and had quite a lot of jargon and so we went to the supermarket as well and tried all the different coffee that we could find on the shelves there and we just thought to ourselves, there’s nothing that’s delivering the variety of specialty coffee that we want, that’s freshly roasted, that’s different each month, that’s exciting and sustainably sourced as well. That was a huge thing at the time, we just couldn’t find anything that had any clear information on the packaging and that really spoke to us as sustainably minded consumers so we thought, why not just set up exactly the business that we’re dreaming off which, as you described, is a multi-roastery coffee subscription club.
Elliot Moss
And Ben, just the very first thing, just the very, very first thing you did in order to realise your dream?
Ben Charalambous
So the first thing we did when we had the idea was set up a kick-start campaign, a crowdfunding campaign just to see if we had any interest from other people with our idea, to sort of validate the idea I guess and that was a month long campaign, we went over our funding target by quite some way; I think about 130% over and that kind of gave us the confidence to be like, this is actually you know, we’ve got a business idea here and people are interested in the product and having that variety and discovery in coffee. So during that time as we sort of hit our target we knew that we had to now start planning the launch of the business and creating the website, all the packaging, and all these different bits and pieces that come with, with launching a business. So in that sort of first 30 days or so, we just had so much more to do than we ever even realised.
Elliot Moss
Of course but the first question was, ask the market and that’s what they did and Alice and Ben are sitting here as the Founders of the very successful Rise. They deliver coffee to your door and they choose really nice things themselves, that’s what they do and I wonder when you get really big you will be able to do that personally or whether you have to get professionals in as well in addition to you.
We talked about that first step Ben and what you did, you raised the money, you go right the market needs it. I then read somewhere that there was a point where your, one of your rooms was full of the stuff, the coffee that you were then going to have to distribute. You know when you said yes to something and then you’re in it.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah.
Alice Wainwright
Yep.
Elliot Moss
What did that feel like for both of you going, okay we’ve, we’ve now crossed the Rubicon, I don’t know if you’d left your jobs by then but…
Alice Wainwright
No, no.
Ben Charalambous
No we were still working.
Elliot Moss
Right so now you’re double, you’re multi-tasking. Was there a, you know, just explain the feeling that you had when you’re knee deep in coffee going, what have we actually done?
Alice Wainwright
For the first few months it was just super fun you know, it was pure chaos, there was so much happening as you mentioned, working full time but I think it took maybe 6 or 9 months for us to realise, okay wow, this is a real business now, we have some big decisions to make and as you mentioned, not just one bedroom, the entire flat, we had a one bedroom flat with no garden and a dog and it was floor to ceiling with coffee and boxes and as you opened our front door you just got hit with this amazing smell of freshly roasted coffee. And for a while it was manageable but it quickly became a point of tension between us both.
Ben Charalambous
There were also a few incidents that happened where it became unmanageable where I was on a Zoom call once in our corporate jobs and ring at the doorbell and there was about two pallets at our front door where we had to unstack I think it was 1000 litres.
Alice Wainwright
I think we had like 3 minutes you know, we were on mute to maybe a client call which obviously sounds terribly unprofessional in hindsight and we had to just quickly get out there, unload these pallets, a 1000 kilos of oat milk, things like this happening every day almost and it was unmanageable and it was quite hard.
Elliot Moss
So at what point did you then go, hold on a minute we’ve got to transition full time here. Because that’s a moment isn’t it when the two of you go, there’s nice money coming in, I enjoy my job – you are both really good at what you do assume because you are both work in proper companies – and then you go, turn it off.
Ben Charalambous
It was Alice basically gave me an ultimatum really in terms of the next sort of step I guess in, in the company. Not really gave me an ultimatum, gave us an ultimatum because the, it was unmanageable the living situation with being in a one bedroom flat in Brixton so we had to then look at finding the next step for the business to take it to that next level of professionalism I suppose. And so we went looking for storage units and we spent a bit of time in and out of different storage units in Brixton and then we…
Alice Wainwright
Which was by the way a really dark period. I mean imagine doing a 14 hour day in your corporate job because we were still working full time for quite a while and then going to a freezing cold, pitch black storage unit in the middle of winter, packing until 2.00am and then you know, having a few hours’ sleep and doing the same thing every day and if we wanted to go for a few days away on holiday, you know, god forbid, a week away, the amount of work we had to do in preparation and the amount of time spent in that storage unit.
Elliot Moss
So do you remember when you said, we are resigning and do you remember why and what pushed you over right at that minute? What was the actual final straw?
Alice Wainwright
It was different for both of us, do you want to go with your story first?
Ben Charalambous
Um yes, with myself I was working for a corporate company, I moved across to a new, new company, it wasn’t a company that I was enjoying working for, it wasn’t the environment that I was expecting and things like that so for me it was more of a, I guess like a push to sort of say my current corporate world is not working, I’ve got this great business here, let’s, let’s sort of take that.
Elliot Moss
So you were comfortable moving away from something? It kind of made sense?
Ben Charalambous
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
And for you Alice?
Alice Wainwright
So I was a lot more, well I am a lot more risk averse so I actually went part time initially and tried to manage but I had quite a senior job so it was still very difficult and I just found that my head wasn’t in it you know, my head space was somewhere else so even if I am in a you know, in an important meeting, I’m still thinking about all the things and all the ideas of the business 24/7 so I went part time and then actually unfortunately my dad got really sick so around that time I left the job and I spent about 6 months, we both spent about 6 months with the business sort of on the back foot whilst we looked after my dad in hospital and he eventually passed away which obviously…
Elliot Moss
I’m sorry.
Alice Wainwright
…also was really difficult for the business but he always said to me you know, get out of this, this you know, corporate life, like you have a great business, work for yourself, you’ll never look back and off the back of all of that experience and you know, it was a difficult year but from there on you know, I’ve worked for the business full time and, and definitely haven’t looked back so.
Ben Charalambous
Having us both full time in the business it has just completely…
Elliot Moss
Because this was only, it was the last couple of years then is it full time?
Ben Charalambous
It’s around 2, 2½ years ago.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
And your dad died last…
Alice Wainwright
In 2023.
Elliot Moss
2023.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah so and then I fell pregnant as well so obviously there was…
Elliot Moss
There’s not much going on for Alice here.
Alice Wainwright
…you know, it was a very difficult time but also you know, juggling motherhood with the business. We’ve now got into a really good rhythm and I think what you’re alluding to Ben is, since giving it 100% focus, we couldn’t have imagined the growth that we would have unlocked so for anyone out there that maybe is kind of juggling a side hustle, if you are passionate about something, I would say 100% just dive in feet first and go for it.
Elliot Moss
Creativity is in the commitment and these two are living, breathing it, Alice Wainwright and Ben Charalambous, are my Business Shapers, they are the Founders of Rise, bringing you beautiful coffee fresh to your door every day and I’ll be doing voice overs for you in the future. Much more coming up – I won’t be, sorry just to be clear, that was a joke. Much more from my guests Alice and Ben coming up in a couple of minutes. Right now though we are going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series which you can find on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their practical advice and industry insights for those of you, like Alice and Ben, thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip we hear from Ethan Fraenkle, Co-founder and CEO of Prograd, a UK fintech platform aiming to empower GenZ to earn side income and improve their financial future.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again – lucky you - if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your favourite podcast platform of choice. My guests today are Alice Wainwright and Ben Charalambous, Co-founders of Rise, a BCorp – I should have mentioned that – certified coffee subscription club. What you won’t know is that Ben moves a lot, Ben is, Ben is active, there is a lot of energy here, me talking to Ben and Alice and Alice is now smiling in a way that a person that lives with Ben can only smile. You have ADHD?
Ben Charalambous
That’s right.
Elliot Moss
And as you say, you have it, you are ADH… I don’t know what the, people have different variations about this but you can tell me what you normally say?
Ben Charalambous
Yeah, I usually just say I have ADHD.
Elliot Moss
You have ADHD.
Ben Charalambous
I think it’s quite clear obviously when you meet me, I’m very energetic and…
Elliot Moss
There’s, there’s like a pulse going through you the whole time.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah, constant movement I guess.
Elliot Moss
Yeah that constant movement Ben, when you were setting up must have been dynamite?
Ben Charalambous
It’s definitely a super power, I was actually only 30 when I got diagnosed with ADHD. It was a previous boss that I worked for who I guess diagnosed it for me at the time and suggested that I might have ADHD you know, I went and got tested and went through the process but the super power I thought it has is that constant hustle to go and build the business, I can do 10 different things at one. Alice always laughs at I am the only man she has ever met that can multi-task for example. So it’s been a real helping hand in growing a business like ours.
Elliot Moss
And give me one downside?
Ben Charalambous
Maybe ask Alice that question?
Elliot Moss
Alice, what’s the downside of, for Ben and for you?
Alice Wainwright
Taking big uncalculated risks.
Elliot Moss
As in he just does?
Alice Wainwright
Yeah he’s sees an opportunity and he goes for it and thinks about the consequences later.
Elliot Moss
I think that’s quite male, in my, in my survey of many women that I know in my life…
Alice Wainwright
Yeah maybe.
Elliot Moss
…they would say, yeah that’s quite male but obviously it’s...
Ben Charalambous
I would say they are calculated personally.
Elliot Moss
Calculated risks.
Alice Wainwright
Some are calculated.
Elliot Moss
Calculated bravery, that’s what we’re talking about.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah.
Ben Charalambous
Bravery is the right word.
Elliot Moss
Bravery.
Alice Wainwright
And also making a lot happen at once which is fantastic but also means he’s meant to be in five different places at once.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah my diary management is not, not great.
Alice Wainwright
It’s not your best skill.
Elliot Moss
So the complementarianism between the two of you, if that is such a word, what are you doing Alice that Ben can’t do?
Alice Wainwright
Well I like to think that I am the strategic one and I’m very focussed on the bigger picture so obviously when Ben’s bringing in all these different opportunities and making stuff happen, for me it’s about how does this align with the bigger picture you know, where are we headed. So I think we complement each other really well actually because Ben does make a lot happen very opportunist, just a true entrepreneur in that respect, whereas I’m there you know, looking at the business case, thinking about how it makes sense for us long term.
Elliot Moss
I’m, here comes a name drop, because it was a very proud moment. I interviewed Jodie Foster, the actor…
Ben Charalambous
Wow.
Elliot Moss
…many, many years ago for something we do at Mishcon de Reya and I asked her a question which was, has, have your roles that you’ve played changed you? And she said, I’m really pleased you asked that question because the answer is yes and people don’t often ask me that question but of course they have. What’s changed you about being an entrepreneur that wasn’t there before?
Ben Charalambous
That’s a great question.
Alice Wainwright
I think for me it’s given me a freedom and a deep realisation that life can be great. So I guess before you know, you might look at going to work as just something you have to do whereas now the fact that we can wake up each day and we’re able to do really whatever we want, that feeling of freedom just brings me just so much joy I guess.
Elliot Moss
And for you Ben?
Ben Charalambous
For me I feel like when I was working in these corporate roles that I didn’t really enjoy, I felt almost trapped I guess. I think with having Rise now and you know, us two together running the business as a couple as well as just business partners.
Elliot Moss
Engaged.
Ben Charalambous
Engaged sorry yeah.
Elliot Moss
She’s got a ring.
Ben Charalambous
She’s got the ring yeah. Just means that we can really like express ourselves or our business in any ways that we choose too and we can enjoy those winning moments together which is really nice. I feel like you just have a lot more creativity to do what you think is the right thing to do with your own business and that doesn’t really often come in some other roles that you might often work in. So this kind of unlocked me in a way.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah I’ve never seen you so happy for sure.
Elliot Moss
Two brilliant explanations of what it means to be an entrepreneur, there you go.
How did you work out what was good and what wasn’t. Is it purely your own, your own decision. I mean or are you reading lots of reviews and how does it work? In terms of deciding what goes into the packages every month.
Ben Charalambous
Yeah ultimately we have the final decision as to what makes it into the box. We have a few steps that we go through to choose the right coffee; so we blind taste all of the coffees that get sent to us. So roasters all over the country will send us samples of different roasts and different coffees.
Elliot Moss
And they know about you now?
Ben Charalambous
Yeah I mean we get sent coffee…
Alice Wainwright
Every day.
Ben Charalambous
…our house is full of coffee from roasters who want to feature in, inside the box which is great. So we do blind cupping taste sessions where we try all the coffees side-by-side not knowing which roaster it is from. We also have a taste test panel of customers where we send coffees that we like to and they get to try and leave us some feedback on a form.
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Ben Charalambous
So we really get our community involved in the decision making process as well and being BCorp we do have a pretty strict sustainability criteria that roasters have to meet as well so once that forms been completed we can then assess their coffee as part of the feature in a box so it’s really based on taste and their sustainability credentials really.
Elliot Moss
And your own sense of what’s good Alice, has it developed, you know, I think some element is obviously coffee tasters are the same. Is it just better the more you taste because the notes come out more and you’ve got, you’ve got the ability to, to make distinctions between one coffee and another?
Alice Wainwright
Yeah definitely. I mean as the years have gone on now I think we can taste something blind and we might guess you know, the origin or sometimes even the farm.
Elliot Moss
This is definitely Arabica which is a robust, I know nothing.
Alice Wainwright
An Ethiopian Goshen. But…
Elliot Moss
Of course.
Alice Wainwright
…I would say that one of the reasons why I think our coffee club is popular and it’s successful is because we appreciate that not everybody wants to taste something that is really unusual and has really distinctive tasting notes so we try and also include what we call like a crowd pleaser, you know, something that’s versatile, that can be drank with milk or even with sugar which is sacrilege in the world of specialty coffee. But we appreciate that you know, not everybody wants to drink a coffee a certain way so we try and include you know, a real variety but also some great coffees that are you know, the type of coffee you might have in a, in a good café in London.
Elliot Moss
But you mix it up intentionally Ben, so you do, you’ll have a crowd pleaser but you’ll also have some esoteric, they’ve only got you know, three beans were made on the, on the edges of the fjord in Norway?
Ben Charalambous
That’s right yeah, maybe not quite to that level.
Elliot Moss
And separated with cow dung. No cow dung.
Ben Charalambous
You want to taste that great. But yeah, we, we ultimately try and ensure that there’s the crowd pleasers are in there that we know everyone will really enjoy and then something that’s a little bit different, they may not have tried before. We’ve got some coffees coming up for example, that are a bit more fruity, more natural process so it gives our base of customers something different to try that they might not have come across themselves. So it’s really all about discovery, about experience, trying something new whilst also making sure that everyone does enjoy their coffee every month.
Elliot Moss
And, and how have you got away from the pretentious thing, we started out and you said you know, there was a lot of pretentious stuff out there, I just want to have great coffee. Is it through language, is it, I mean how is, how is it managed that bit?
Alice Wainwright
Yeah so, one of the main things that we do each month is include a booklet all about the coffee and we have a very strict you know, jargon policy with that so we try to use everyday language to describe the coffee and talk about the farmers, where it’s come from, obviously the roasters as well so that’s one thing we do. And even with our branding you know, we’re bright pink and yellow and we hope we stand out from the you know, the majority…
Elliot Moss
Yes it doesn’t look pretentious actually it looks quite normal.
Alice Wainwright
…and modern hopefully.
Elliot Moss
Modern.
Alice Wainwright
And fun and exciting you know, we wanted our brand name Rise to be reflective of the fact that you jump out of bed in the morning and have a great coffee, full of energy and obviously…
Elliot Moss
Jumps, jumps a big word.
Alice Wainwright
Well yeah.
Elliot Moss
Crawl.
Alice Wainwright
Hopefully with our coffee you do jump out of bed.
Elliot Moss
Stagger. But I mean I must say the, without the coffee and I normally have two doubles before 11.00 o’clock.
Alice Wainwright
Oh wow.
Elliot Moss
Yeah two doubles, I, I think I would be even more, even more grumpy than I am. Stay with me for my final chat with Alice and Ben, they are the Founders of Rise, they are people that bring you special coffee and crowd pleasers too I am pleased to say. I like a bit of mass market as well. Final chat coming up with them as I mentioned. We’ve got some Emma-Jean Thackray for you too, that’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.
Alice Wainwright and Ben Charalambous are my Business Shapers just for a few more minutes. You talked at the beginning about you know, couldn’t find the coffee that was right for you, it was a bit pretentious and also there was this point about sustainability and values. You lovely people have set up the Friendly Coffee Fund. Just in your own words, describe what that is very briefly, Ben?
Ben Charalambous
So the fund essentially is a project that we’ve set up in Uganda, it’s our first project out there and in 2023 we were looking at ways that we can give back to the coffee industry and to the farmers who produce the beans that we buy and there are lots of great organisations out there that you can you know, give 1% of your revenue to and they use the money in really great ways but we just didn’t find anything that really did anything in coffee specifically or to help the farmers that produce the coffee and about 80% of coffees produced by smallholder farmers, so they have a very small plot of land to produce the beans and a large quantity of those farmers; I think it’s about 44% live in poverty or below the poverty line. So when we came back from Uganda we decided to set up our own fund, our own project and we give back 1% of all of our revenue to that project and currently we’ve got over 100 children in full time education in Uganda. So we help pay for their school fees, pay for their books, equipment, transport to school, things like that and we are looking to expand that fund to help pay for sanitation in the school, kitchen equipment and then eventually over the next couple of years we want to launch 2 to 3 new projects in other coffee growing communities. And so that’s really what drives us with this business really and the purpose behind it and we’re on WhatsApp with the farmers, we’re on WhatsApp with the local community you know, they send us messages and show us school reports and it really is the driving force behind why we do Rise.
Alice Wainwright
I should probably mention that when we were in Western Uganda in the mountains we were on a coffee farm when a small boy was following us for about half a day. So eventually we asked the person we were with, who is this boy you know, why is he following us and it turned out that he was an orphan that had been thrown out of school for not paying his school fees and it was at that moment that we started learning a bit more about the challenge of child labour in coffee and pretty much as soon as we came back from that trip we realised okay we want to set up a fund and we want to give back initially especially to this cause of child labour in coffee.
Elliot Moss
And are others doing similar things in the industry? Have people sort of said, can we get involved? Because that obviously, what you need is, it’s brilliant that you’re doing this but the scale thing right, that’s the next step I imagine?
Ben Charalambous
Yeah absolutely. We are obviously limited by giving 1% from Rise so we have spoken to a few other roasters who would like to get on board. Really for us though, we want to create a Foundation so an established charity that gives back for money directly. That way it’s easier for other roasters to come on board and be a part of that, that Foundation. At the moment it sort of sits within Rise as something that we do ourselves so that’s part of our plans for next year, we would like to convert that fund into a formal Foundation.
Elliot Moss
And ind, independent with other people on the board.
Ben Charalambous
That’s right.
Alice Wainwright
Yeah and then we can galvanise the support because we’ve had so many customers offer to give directly and we do a bit of that at the moment but as you say, we are sort of limited and there is so much opportunity and so much to do.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Alice Wainwright
That we’d be foolish not to just you know, turn it into something even better.
Elliot Moss
Well you’ve answered part one of my question which is that, that obviously is going to get big, you’re going to be doing amazing things over the next few years. What’s going to happen in the next 3 to 5 years for the business? What do you, what do you want to make happen?
Alice Wainwright
So we’ve got lots of exciting plans for the business, I mean obviously growing is number one so you know, at the moment we’ve got thousands of customers across the UK which is fantastic but we want to be the number one coffee subscription club so a bit like how many households have a wine subscription or a beer subscription, we don’t see why they couldn’t have a Rise Coffee Box subscription as well. So that’s the number one focus really for us but we also have a retail product, a speciality coffee advent calendar that’s sold in John Lewis and some other retailers and that’s given us ideas for lots of other retail products and gifts because we think that’s quite an underserved area, gifting in speciality coffee. And finally, we’ve got some plans for a yearly event which I don’t say too much about where we can bring all our lovely coffee drinkers, our customers, together and also plans for physical spaces.
Elliot Moss
Amazing, well it doesn’t sound like you’ll be at all. It’s lovely to meet you both, it’s been a real, real pleasure.
Alice Wainwright
Thank you so much
Ben Charalambous
Thank you for having us.
Elliot Moss
No, thank you, thank you for coming. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice, I’m saying it to both of you, but one of you will answer, and why have you chosen it?
Alice Wainwright
So our song choice is Stan Getz, The Girl From Ipanema and the reason why we chose this song is we actually went on a trip to Bergen in Norway and stayed in this beautiful hotel where they played 24/7 jazz, even in your bedroom and this song was definitely on repeat and stuck in our heads ever since.
Elliot Moss
Stan Getz, The Girl From Ipanema, the song choice of my Business Shapers today Alice and Ben. They talked about the pivotal moment when they had to decide are we going to go from this being a side hustle and a part time gig to a full time gig and once they did that, everything changed. They talked about the feeling of freedom that they got and the sense of liberation and the ability to express themselves once they had made that choice and once they became the Founders of their own business. And finally, the importance of values to them and their business and their focus on looking at the issues around child labour and the coffee industry. Really great stuff. That’s it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that addition of Jazz Shapers, you’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.