Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guests today are Ed Currie and Andy Coxon. I’ve got two for the price of one. They are the co-founders of AKT London, the natural deodorant brand. Having met while performing in Beautiful: The Carole King Musical in the West End – I’d like to have been there – Ed and Andy shared a frustration with mainstream deodorants that couldn’t keep up with their lifestyles, performing eight shows a week, under hot lights, in the same costumes. Just imagine that for a moment. Believing there must be a way to create a harder working and natural deodorant, they began three years of experimenting, combining ingredients on the hob in their tiny Camden kitchen. Sharing what they believe was a working formula with over a thousand West End performers – we’re going to find out how they did that – led to a hugely successful Kickstarter campaign and despite a cease and desist letter and a venture capital round that almost destroyed the business, Ed and Andy were buoyed the support and financial input of a fast-growing community. AKT London now have five fragrances and a fragrance-free, sensitive skin deodorant balm, all natural, plastic free and without a gender focus. And having launched in the US last year, they’ve got goals for further international expansion.
Ed Currie, Andy Coxon, they’re my Business Shapers, they’re the founders of AKT. Not just a deodorant company. Is that right, Andy? Hello.
Andy Coxon
Hello, hello, hello.
Elliot Moss
Let’s start with you.
Andy Coxon
Hello.
Elliot Moss
I’ve got these two fine specimens in front of me.
Andy Coxon
Oh stop.
Elliot Moss
And I, I have to start somewhere so, don’t worry, don’t worry Ed, it’s going to…
Ed Currie
I’ll sit quietly in the background.
Elliot Moss
You sit for about five seconds, yeah. He’s already going.
Ed Currie
I don’t speak.
Elliot Moss
Andy and Ed, it’s great to have you both here. Tell me a little bit about ‘the problem’ as I outlined, the problem of smelling bad and sweating buckets and why you bothered to fix it because you weren’t the first performers to encounter smelling awful.
Andy Coxon
What? I mean, it’s a constant issue doing eight shows a week, you wear the same costumes, you’re under the hot lights, these clothes are speciality clothes that can’t be washed nightly so, these smells and stains get ingrained and as you heat them up when dancing, the smells are even worse and, and I’m going to let Ed take this one because when you were in A Chorus Line at the Palladium, your co-start turned to you and said?
Ed Currie
Well, I can’t swear on the radio but “You flipping stink, Ed.” It was so embarrassing, like, I mean it was a, a big dance show at the Palladium and this was back in 2013 and for some reason, everybody else’s costume in that show was a leotard but mine was a lovely woollen jumper and so it just got really ingrained over the course of the run and yeah, she turned to me and said I stink and I was like yeah, I do and I don’t know what to do about it because I’d tried everything and I was spraying the jumper with alcohol every day to try and kill the smells and nothing was working and then we met in Beautiful: The Carole King Musical at the Aldwych back in 2015, that’s when that run was, and again just the same issues and I knew that I wasn’t alone in that as well, everybody else in the company smells as well, it’s very difficult and just nothing in the market seemed to work so…
Elliot Moss
But why did you bother, both of you? I mean you’re happily performing there, you’re at the height of your burgeoning careers and you go “yeah, let’s go and make a deodorant”, I mean it doesn't exactly fit with the, the image I have of performers.
Andy Coxon
This was not the plan.
Elliot Moss
No.
Andy Coxon
What we’ve created was never the plan. It still isn’t the plan, we’re just going with the success, it’s phenomenal.
Ed Currie
Just following it.
Andy Coxon
Erm, we accidentally created something that really worked. It was, we were living together at the time, you’d found this basic recipe online of a few ingredients, threw it together, tried it, you got boils and rashes, I tried it, I got a rash, but we didn’t smell so we were like ooh it’s piqued an interest and it just became this sort of hobby outside of shows and you’d do it on the side, the kitchen almost became a meth lab of, of Breaking Bad powders everywhere and different, different waxes, powders, oils and trying different formulas on friends, on family, on cast members, just to go “oh just try that, what do you think?” erm…
Elliot Moss
Did you poison anybody? Not that you know of.
Ed Currie
We can’t say that.
Elliot Moss
It’s okay, we put money in paper bags and everybody’s actually happy and they’re keeping quiet.
Ed Currie
I mean, we were, we were the real test, we actually say you know, “Tested on dancers, not on animals.”
Elliot Moss
Not on animals, yeah.
Andy Coxon
Which is true.
Ed Currie
And it’s true and we did that over three years so it wasn’t an immediate thing creating this formula, it was…
Elliot Moss
But may I say, it’s kind of a weird hobby, I mean I’m not suggesting for a minute…
Andy Coxon
Hobby’s a strong word, it wasn’t a hobby, it just became a little thing.
Elliot Moss
I mean other people, you know, they play silly games on their phones or they, or they go drinking or they, you know, they sew and do those lovely, what are those things called, those people that do…
Andy Coxon
Crochet?
Elliot Moss
That’s the one, yeah, crochet, but there you are making deodorant but that’s obviously because it was genuinely, it had to be fixed for you, there was not, once you started were you then in?
Ed Currie
Yeah, I mean I was so frustrated that I was throwing away t-shirts every other week and I know that a lot of people have this experience when you use an antiperspirant, you get those like claggy yellow stains in the t-shirts and they just don’t wash out.
Elliot Moss
Just throw them away. Never comes out.
Ed Currie
Yeah, and it was just becoming a real pain in the bum for me so I, yeah, I just started making it in the kitchen and it just became fun and researching ingredients, researching how formulations are made and just giving it a go. It’s like a toddler in your mum’s bathroom cabinet and you just take everything out and…
Andy Coxon
George’s Marvellous Medicine.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me with my lovely two grown-up toddlers, now not too grown-up, still very young men. I’m with Ed Currie and Andy Coxon and they’re the people behind the AKT deodorant brand, if you were listening earlier, and of course you were. They were mucking around in the kitchen and things got a bit more serious and you managed to crack the code. At what point did you know if you, if there was a moment, that you went “hold on a minute, we’ve got this working, it’s efficacious, the consistency is right” because I imagine texture’s quite important because it’s got be bottled, at what point did you know that was happening?
Andy Coxon
It’s when friends started asking to buy pots off us and just said “ah” and we said, “yeah we’ll make some” you know £10 a pot and we were just filling little tins and I think we were making about £200 maybe a month.
Ed Currie
A month.
Andy Coxon
Just from friends going “that’s really good, can you make some more please” and we go “yeah, of course we can, we’re poor actors” so we do batches on the hob in a big vat, a big bain-marie and we’ve still got the original pan, doing, yeah, batches of these circular tins with screw lids on, you pour it in, put it in the fridge to solidify and then it ramped up to people really wanting it.
Ed Currie
And I, I kind of fell out of love with performing and decided I wasn’t going to do it anymore.
Elliot Moss
Why, Ed?
Ed Currie
I just found the industry quite difficult. I didn’t like the rise and fall of it, like you’re in work, you’re out of work. I didn’t enjoy kind of being at the bottom of the hierarchy.
Andy Coxon
The politics.
Ed Currie
And yeah the politics of it. I went into performing because I’m creative and I love it and actually, I think being a performer, you’re not given much creativity, especially if you step into a show that already exists.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, the choreographer says you do that please and you do it.
Ed Currie
And A Chorus Line for me was that, that show because you have to stand on that number, you look into that light and you say the, your line in that light in this way and so it’s almost like being in the army, you’re a soldier and just kind of told what to do and I, I’m a creative, I made a deodorant in the kitchen.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, you know, but actually joking aside there’s, there’s, there’s this great range that you now have, which is you can essentially, you have agency and you’re masters of your own destiny.
Ed Currie
Oh yeah and we say that about performers all the time and I’m veering off on a tangent here but a lot of our staff come from a performance background.
Elliot Moss
I read that but by design because you like them.
Ed Currie
Yeah, well, not in a…
Elliot Moss
No, well I mean you like what they deliver, their talent that they have.
Ed Currie
Yeah, the skillset that they have is very particular and a lot of people, when we say we were actors, they put up their two hands and they go ‘jazz hands’ and it’s quite annoying because we’re more than that, we’re actually really good problem solvers, we’re very disciplined, especially if you trained in dance like that dance training is…
Andy Coxon
Militant.
Ed Currie
Intense, yeah it’s militant.
Elliot Moss
And actually I was listening to something earlier today and it said something, the line was “discipline is freedom” which I thought was actually quite a powerful thing because the more you do something, the more master you have of it and the more ability you then have to do great things with hopefully, the financial gains you get from doing that thing really well.
Ed Currie
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that it’s, it’s not just about the talent, yes you have to be a good singer but you’ve also got to be a very good person to be in the room with, you’ll be fun to be around, you’ve got to be a great problem solver, the director doesn’t want to tell you exactly what you need to do at every single point so you’re always thinking ahead, what’s my, my back stage choreography as well, where’s my costume going to be set, where’s my prop at that moment.
Elliot Moss
Well actually, Andy, err Ed, that’s what I was going to ask both of you. Have you moved essentially from being given the lines and being given the direction to being the directors?
Andy Coxon
Oh 100%.
Ed Currie
Very much, yeah.
Elliot Moss
And is that much more enjoyable?
Ed Currie
Yes.
Elliot Moss
It is definitely for you and is it the same for you, Andy, do you?
Andy Coxon
I love it, I love, for me, so at the point when we’d made this formula, I was a photographer as well so, on the side of acting, that was my little sideline so I said to Ed, let’s brand it and turn it into a visual thing that we can start selling and so I’ve always used my creativity to keep me happy when, you know, when you’re in Les Mis standing on 11 and lifting your arm 45 degrees, having those other things that help you go “ah, my creative juices are still flowing”, I’m now fully fledged creative director of AKT’s visuals that you see and I’m emptying my brain’s vision into all of that stuff so I’m, I’m exercising that still, so I do really enjoy that side of it.
Elliot Moss
So it sounds to me that the answer, it’s a yes or no one, unusually for, for me. Do you enjoy this more than performing on the stage?
Ed Currie
Yes.
Andy Coxon
I, I miss performing, I don’t miss the lifestyle and that’s, the lifestyle is 85% of being an actor, to be completely honest with you, because you’re on stage for sometimes 20 minutes of the whole show.
Elliot Moss
Only because, listening to an interview with Gary Lineker earlier this month, I was struck by the fact that he talked about the buzz of scoring the goal and whether he could ever replicate that in his life and he kind of said no, but we’ll come back to whether you’ve replicated the buzz or indeed surpassed it. Maybe Ed has, maybe Andy’s still on the fence. Much more coming up from both of them in a couple of minutes, don’t go anywhere.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your favourite podcast platform. My guests today are Ed Currie and Andy Coxon, co-founders of AKT London, the natural deodorant brand. And Andy, you hinted, it’s not just deodorant, let’s just quickly cover that, what else are you in?
Andy Coxon
Not anymore so, last year we actually launched our body care range so, we’re moving from just being a deodorant brand to being the personal performance company, so all of these products that we, we create help you perform better in your life because everyone performs in some aspect so what we’re doing is giving you the confidence to step onto your stage, whatever that may be, and perform at your best. And we’ve moved into a bodywash concentrate, so waterless bodywash because the number on ingredient in bodywash is water, what’s the point when you’re in the shower, so it’s like a gel that you activate with water and it foams deliciously and it is winning awards already, phenomenal. We have a body balm which is like a body lotion but it has an ingredient in it that is clinically proven to firm and tighten the skin, so we call it “a dance class in a tube” because we used to do body conditioning as dancers, so we call it the Body Conditioning Balm.
Elliot Moss
I need some of that.
Andy Coxon
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Don’t say, “You do.”
Ed Currie
It’s very good. Luxurious.
Elliot Moss
They’re nodding. Yes, you do, Elliot, you need quite a lot of it. We’re going to give you a bath full of the stuff.
Andy Coxon
Bathe in it.
Elliot Moss
Bathe in it, yeah. Drink it every night. Like Cleopatra. It’s going to sit there and it’s going to be like massive. I’m going to fill my bath right up with it. So, so firstly, obviously when people start to diversify a little bit, there’s always the worry that the, the juice in the middle, the special sauce, the golden goose, whatever you want to call it, is diluted. It doesn’t sound like you’re doing it purely to expand this business beyond one specific, it sounds like actually you really believe in these other things that can also add to the, you know, to, to improve people’s lives.
Andy Coxon
We made a pledge that we’ll never release a product just for the sake of it. There was a point when we did a big piece of work on what the hell do we do next because this has been such a happy accident and we sat down and we were given the two options of you either take the easy route where you get loads of easy formulas, put them in nice packaging, sell them as part of AKT and just go for ‘the money’ goal as it were or you take the hard route and find those innovative missing pieces in the industry that make ethically tailored products and that was the route that we said, “That’s us.”
Elliot Moss
Why? Why didn’t you want the easy life?
Ed Currie
It felt very inauthentic, I think, for us. Like the, the deodorant balm was made from a need and so there wasn’t that kind of thinking, well let’s just make loads of products because people will buy them all and it’ll be very easy, like we wanted to find that need again, that was kind of the spark, the creativity and the drive.
Elliot Moss
And, and just thinking, you know something, something you said, Ed, about people like, you know, do the jazz hands actor thing and that, that sense that there’ll be a lack of substance or that you’re just performative and all that. Do you find yourself constantly going, “I want to prove people wrong on that” or have you moved on from that and you’re going, “We’re just going to run our business the way we want to run it”? Do you know what I mean, is there an insecurity in you that goes, “Come on, we’re more that this”?
Ed Currie
I think at the beginning, yeah, I think that was a lot of the drive behind us was to, to prove people that we could do it.
Andy Coxon
We could do more than what’s expected.
Ed Currie
Yeah.
Andy Coxon
The people that come up to us now are kind of mind blown by what we’ve achieved, as are we ourselves personally, but for example a couple of weeks ago we were interviewing people in the Green Carpet at the Oliviers, which is something we would never have been doing.
Ed Currie
Like Tom Hiddleston, it’s amazing.
Andy Coxon
Tom Hiddleston, Hayley Atwell, Samantha Barks, all these amazing stars that wear AKT and come up to us and go, “Guys, I love it”, people stopping us talking, just going, “It’s amazing what you’ve created”. Everyone is invested in the story but also the product backs itself up, it’s not, we have not just gone “there’s a hole in the market, let’s make something, brand it and put it out there”, we’ve done it the complete opposite way of going “oh my god, I really need something to work, oh let’s just play, oh we’ve made it, great, now let’s make a brand, now oh, oh we have this story” and everyone’s gone “that story is unbelievable, tell everyone” and we’re going “okay, okay” and we’re just going with it and it’s snowballing to this, this effect of people getting on board with us and wanting to know what’s next and I think if we turned round and said “here’s a, you’re regular shower gel” shall we say, they’re going to go, “okay fine” but it’s not going to do what the deodorant’s done.
Elliot Moss
You have to have belief and confidence to do what you did professionally and to do what you do now. Where does that come from for each of you?
Ed Currie
Oh my god, what a question.
Andy Coxon
What a question. There’s been points during the journey of AKT where I’ve turned to Ed and said, “How have we continued on?” because we’ve been hit with some absolute stumbling blocks and I think that is almost inherent as an actor because you are constantly knocked back, you are constantly trying to make rent that month if you’re not in a contract and when a contract ends you’ve got to find the next gig and it’s constantly problem solving, like you said, but that resilience that you, you learn as an actor stays with you and I think we had some serious knockbacks with AKT as a journey and I honestly couldn't tell you how, why we decided to continue, we just did because we almost, you’re almost afraid of failure as an actor in a sense because there’s that point of you don’t want to look like a failure to people and we were both very successful as actors, so I, honestly, honestly, it was no like equation to go “this is working.”
Elliot Moss
But did it, you know, and I think you must be right about the resilience point in what you do but is that something that you had before you started acting and before you started performing, if you think about it and if it’s true that you were those kinds of people, why, was there something about the way both of you, different people, were brought up or that you kind of saw around you and you went you’ve just got to endure, you’ve just got to carry on?
Ed Currie
Gosh, going, going into the childhood.
Elliot Moss
Do you know what I mean? Was there any, were there things that just, you know you had role models around you and just went there’s got to be food on the table? I mean, both my parents were self-employed and things were up and down quite a lot, actually, and it, it was, it wasn’t ‘tough’ is a strong word and I’m, you know, horribly middleclass but kind of you know both, but neither parent went to university, it was like they were working, they were in retail, it was hard.
Ed Currie
I mean, for me, yes, my parents divorced when I was five and I’m one of seven kids and so you are, you’re not only fighting for attention and from each parent but you’re, you’re fighting for food if there’s any snacks in.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Ed Currie
I was telling somebody yesterday. Oh I was telling our investor yesterday how at the age of nine like I was cooking for the whole family because nobody else was going to feed everybody that night so you just had to kind of put your…
Elliot Moss
Get on with it.
Ed Currie
Get on with it.
Elliot Moss
Now we see why. Now we see why. Okay, good, that makes sense. Is there, for you Andy, what’s the?
Andy Coxon
I mean, my family have always been extremely supportive in a completely non-pushy way where they just sort of let me figure out what I wanted to do and from that became an independence very early on and I sort of became very mature very early, where I was basically this is what I want to do and I’m going to do it and they gave me that, I guess support from distance shall we say so it allowed you to find your way and if you stumbled you had something to fall back on, so I guess I always had a comfort there so that it didn’t scare me at that age until I moved to London and did the big thing of “I’m going, I got to drama school, I did it”, I got grants, I got, I’m going to do this and then I’ve never relied on my parents, I’ve never relied on anybody so that independence still goes now, both me and Ed are very strong minded people and I think that, gosh we’re really unpacking here aren’t we, that it, it’s I think that’s what got us here, we, we’re strong independent people that have lived quite early on, we’re very mature people.
Elliot Moss
I was going to say, you do feel that you seem really old both of you.
Andy Coxon
Thanks.
Ed Currie
I do feel haggard. I’m not sure that’s the same.
Elliot Moss
Can I say, can I say, they look, they look absolutely amazing but the wisdom is there and the lived experience, as I say, is there as well. Final chat coming up with my guests today, Ed Currie and Andy Coxon and we’ve got some music from Kokoroko, that’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.
I have Andy Coxon and Ed Currie, my excellent founders today, the people behind the AKT brand, which I’ve got to try, there you go, an admission, I haven’t tried it but I’m going to, I know, don’t huff, I can see your irritation.
Andy Coxon
I’m absolutely furious.
Elliot Moss
So, so look, you’ve, you’ve achieved amazing amounts, we’ve talked about both of you in your different ways being independent and strong. The success going forward, where’s it going to come from? From a personal perspective and a business perspective, is it just more of the same or is there some secret source? Yeah, a business perspective.
Ed Currie
No, I mean a lot has changed in the last few months. Obviously, we started and it was just the two of us and we had to do every single facet of the business. I had to learn what a spreadsheet was and do all the finances and I did that for the first four years, we built the website ourselves, we learned how to do email marketing.
Elliot Moss
And now by the way are you cool with all of it? It’s just stuff, isn’t it?
Ed Currie
Well.
Elliot Moss
Or do you prefer some bits to others?
Andy Coxon
We know enough to have handed it on to people to then.
Ed Currie
So now the company is about 25 people, I always get that wrong, and so we’ve hired in those skills, you know we’ve got a CFO who knows how to do useful…
Andy Coxon
Bring in the experts.
Ed Currie
Quite important.
Elliot Moss
Very important.
Ed Currie
And so now it’s only in the last maybe six months or so that we’ve been able to kind of fall into the roles that I think we were naturally supposed to be doing for the brand. I am now officially Chief Product Officer. I’m the product creating, you know I was the one making it on the hob at the beginning. Andy is now Chief Brand Officer because he made all the visuals and he still very much does all of that but we’ve got a CEO, we’ve just hired a CMO. For anybody who’s listening who doesn’t know what a CEO is, Chief Executive Officer, Chief Marketing Officer.
Elliot Moss
Oh you’re so good. Look at that.
Ed Currie
Yeah, we’re building a team that’s really, really strong.
Andy Coxon
Because we’re going global.
Ed Currie
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
You are going global.
Andy Coxon
It’s from a business dream perspective. So we launched in America just over a year ago. It’s going extremely well over there. We did the same thing.
Ed Currie
And everybody told us not to do it.
Elliot Moss
And where did you launch, East Coast or West?
Andy Coxon
On Broadway.
Elliot Moss
Broadway, of course.
Ed Currie
And LA as well, we did both, both edges, creative scenes. But I don’t think we mentioned this, on, in the UK we launched by giving every single West End performer…
Elliot Moss
Yes, I mentioned, was going to ask you how did you get to them? I mean, it sounds a silly question but did you just sort of?
Andy Coxon
They’re friends.
Elliot Moss
They’re friends. So just friends? They were friends.
Andy Coxon
We contacted the company manager or one person in every show and we just gave, gave…
Elliot Moss
So you literally went along to rehearsals and said here you go.
Andy Coxon
We gave them to every single…
Elliot Moss
And said here you go.
Andy Coxon
Every stage door and said, “At warm-up can you hand them out.” There was a leaflet with instructions that said our Kickstarter is going live tomorrow if you all post about it because loads of them already knew what it was and it just went ‘boom’.
Elliot Moss
Boom, yeah.
Andy Coxon
We did the same with Broadway and the makeup artists and the creative scene in LA.
Elliot Moss
Very, very focussed. And you start with, I mean it’s proof of concept which says if it works for them and you just live a normal life, it’s probably going to work for you. I mean it’s, it’s sort of 101 brilliant strategy, that’s what it is.
Ed Currie
Don’t go wide, go niche.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, go really niche and then you’ve got a global niche suddenly.
Andy Coxon
And from that Beyonce and Taylor Swift’s dancers now wear it, you’ve got…
Elliot Moss
I read that.
Andy Coxon
Florence Pugh messaged us the other day saying she’s obsessed, that kind of, it’s gone to that level in America, it’s got to the right hands of people, it’s getting, we were on a New York TV channel yesterday, it’s being shown and growing very quickly.
Elliot Moss
It’s happening.
Andy Coxon
So, global domination is on the cards. We’re launching the EU entity next month I believe and then Australia at the end of the year, so that sort of is the dream for the business but I think personally, for us, we’re trying to get ourselves out there as the face of the brand still, doing things like this because this is the powerful bit, we’re, we’re so humbled by what’s happened, the chats that we’re probably having now, we never really had when we were beginning this so we want to empower performers that they can change career, we want to show people how you do it, we’re not afraid to open the cracks and say this is what went wrong, this is what we did, we tried that, this was a gamble, we want to empower people to continue performing but might not necessarily be on stage, open that confidence to change career.
Elliot Moss
And you’ve both been incredibly open today and I think that’s part of the appeal as well, which is you don’t have to put on a persona, you did that as performers but actually this is about the two of you being on your stage going yeah, this is us, thank you very much.
Ed Currie
And it’s really resonating with people, I mean what other deodorant brand do you know that has two people like being the, the front and centre of the brand? There’s not really any and that’s what’s really resonated with our customers and that’s I think why we’re doing more of it because it’s a very unique story, it’s very different, you know we didn’t have a business background at all, most brands are made by people who’ve worked in business and they find a niche and they go ah there’s a market for that, I’ll create a product and ours was the complete reverse and I think people like that and the fact that the product work so…
Elliot Moss
Well I was going to say, the product has to work and you two have been fabulous to meet and chat to. Thank you, thank you very much for joining us. Just before I let you both disappear, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it? I think one of you has got the, has chosen something.
Ed Currie
Yeah, well I chose Birdland because I used to, when I was growing up, I played the saxophone, the alto sax Grade 8.
Elliot Moss
He’s so proud.
Ed Currie
I used to be part of a Big Band every Saturday so, and this was like our hit, so we used to play it whenever we performed, it was the only one that we all got the, the correct notes to because we weren’t very good.
Andy Coxon
Most rehearsed.
Ed Currie
Yes.
Elliot Moss
So this is the St Louis Big Band with Birdland.
Birdland from the St Louis Big Band, the song choice of one of my Business Shapers today, it was Ed, to be clear. They talked about being accidental entrepreneurs. There was a problem to solve and they wanted to solve it. They talked about the importance of authenticity, how as they expand their range, they’re doing it because they genuinely feel they can make a difference. Both Andy and Ed are independent thinkers, as they said, critical if you’re going to be a successful entrepreneur. And finally, the performers Ed and Andy have moved from being in the production to directing the production, I really like that. That’s it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
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