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Jazz Shaper: Connie Nam

Posted on 9 December 2023

Connie Nam launched Astrid & Miyu in 2012, trying to solve her personal pain points of not being able to find well made, well designed jewellery pieces with an exciting brand experience.

Elliot Moss

Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today is Connie Nam, Founder of Astrid & Miyu, the contemporary jewellery brand.  Growing up between South Korea and America due to her father's job as a diplomat, Connie Nam was inspired by her mother's passion for jewellery. Together, they searched local markets and quirky jewellers, talking to vendors and picking out unique items full of stories. It was when burnt out from an early investment banking career that Connie Nam decided to create her own fashion company. She'd noticed existing jewellery brands were stale and impersonal, with products on the glass counters and sales staff in uniform.  Don't we just know all of that? Launching Astrid & Miyu from her flat in 2012, Connie Nam aimed to bring personality, innovation and storytelling to the jewellery market. With her mother managing the relationship with a Korean supplier, Connie Nam spent the first year overseeing everything from product design and marketing to sending orders. Astrid & Miyu are now sold online and in 23 stores across the UK, Ireland and the US, and they've expanded their offer to include piercing, welding, tattoo and engraving services. I can't wait to find out what welding is. Connie Nam is my business shaper and you are right here right now, it’s great to have you.

Connie Nam

Thank you so much for having me.

Elliot Moss

I've dabbled in the world of Astrid & Miyu only because I have two daughters and two sons, but the daughters more interested in Astrid & Miyu. I think walking around Selfridges, if I recall. I'm pretty sure we are.

Connie Nam

We are in Selfridges.

Elliot Moss

Phew I had a moment, I was thinking, she's looking me going no Elliot Moss, we're not. You’ve just made that up.

Connie Nam

No not me personally but we are in Selfridges.

Elliot Moss

You not personally but your brand is. First question is why Astrid & Miyu?  What is the story of, of the name of this company?

Connie Nam

A really good question. So I wanted to incorporate two girls names, one Western and one Eastern as per your intro, I grew up between America and South Korea and my upbringing is quite unique, where I was exposed to different cultures and I wanted the brand to represent Western and Eastern cultures. Astrid is a Western name obviously, and Miyu is an Eastern name, and they both mean beautiful. And I really wanted to create a brand where everyone feels beautiful in their own skin and everyone can be themselves. Hence Astrid & Miyu and there's a whole back story behind that story to Miyu if you wanted to hear that though.

Elliot Moss

I want to hear a little bit more. I mean, you’ve given me, you’ve given me a soupçon, I'm now feeling like I need the main course.

Connie Nam

So Astrid is an introverted artist. She lives in Camden with her musician boyfriend. She loves to go to museums, coffee shops, independent shops.

Elliot Moss

Is this a real person?

Connie Nam

No, it's not. It's a fictional character.

Elliot Moss

Oh okay, for a minute I thought I knew Astra, it’s very interesting.

Connie Nam

She is inspired by my sister.

Elliot Moss

Okay.

Connie Nam

She's a Pisces and Miyu is an entrepreneur. She grew up between Tokyo and London and she's single. She lives in Shoreditch. She's the life of a party and she's a Libra, and she's inspired by a younger version of me, a cooler version, obviously.

Elliot Moss

And the interaction between Astrid and Miyu, what's their relationship like?

Connie Nam

They're best friends. They're complete opposites, but they're best friends.

Elliot Moss

And that is the manifestation of the, of the jewellery?

Connie Nam

Yes, that is our customer. That's who she is and whenever we create campaigns or collection, we always have Astrid or Miyu in mind. So it's not, it's not that a collection or a store is an Astrid or a Miyu collection or store, but some stores are 70% Astrid 30% Miyu. Some stores are 50%. Astrid 50% Miyu

Elliot Moss

But what I like about the, the brand and its and the way you brought it to life from 2012 is the fact that you talked about the genre of fashion and as you said it has been that stuffy thing in this category. Is that because the Miyu in you is a fashionista or is it because there was a gap in the market?

Connie Nam

I think a combination of both. I mean, the real story is I wanted to create a brand that I wanted to wear, but obviously the investor pitch and the public speeches, I found a gap in the market. But that becomes a cliché. You know, I just had a hunch that there was a gap in the market for affordable jewellery that was well priced, well designed but at that time, there was this research by McKinsey. It was so timely because I could have put into all my investor decks. It showed that the jewellery category was highly fragmented. It's the most fragmented category in fashion where most people are shopping in their mom and pop shops or local jewellers, and there weren't that many branded jewellery. The only branded ones were Tiffany or Cartier, really high end jewellery brands, or in the mid-market, there was only Pandora or Swarovski.

Elliot Moss

I read somewhere that you’d said you were always going to set your own business up and you were in the investment banking world, which we referred to earlier, and obviously smart, lots of degrees and masters and things like that. Where was this knowledge? Where did it come from that you knew you would be running your own show?

Connie Nam

The knowledge I think it just came from the gut, but obviously it could be a combination of me having a business degree and being in investment banking and during my time at investment banking although like, you know, I was burnt out in the end, I loved the fact that I worked on a lot of start-up IPOs at that time. I worked in the Hong Kong office and there were a lot of tech IPOs in China in particular going on and I was looking at these business models, meeting these entrepreneurs, and I was just so inspired and I guess like I gained a lot of knowledge there. But essentially I think it was that gut feeling that's always resided.

Elliot Moss

Always like literally as a little kid.

Connie Nam

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

You just knew.

Connie Nam

I wouldn't say I just knew. I wouldn't say I was that confident, but I knew that I always wanted to do my own thing.

Elliot Moss

That sense of moving and people talk about cultural differences in very superficial ways to me. But that sense of moving between worlds, whether it's South Korea and America or whether it's, you know, even a part of London, Camden to Wandsworth is a very different world. Have you always felt like a little bit of an outsider?

Connie Nam

Yeah, absolutely.

Elliot Moss

And has that, has that been the juice? Is that the thing, is that the thing that propels you because are you able to see things because you're not quite in it?

Connie Nam

Yes, absolutely. I've always been observant because I was always an outsider. So I first moved to the US when I was six years old and when I walked into the room, the classroom, everything was like a blank. I felt like I was walking into a dark room. I couldn't understand anything but by month six, I was completely fluent in English and I think that kind of gave me a sense of empathy and also observing people and then when I went back to Korea, I thought I'd be welcomed in my own country but I was the kid from America when I went back. This was when I was nine or ten and at that time, not many kids moved abroad or travelled so there were like these kids from other classrooms that just queued up to see me because, there's this kid from America and they'd line up and ask me to speak in English or write their name in English. I guess I kind of became a celebrity at that time, but it was just so weird.

Elliot Moss

How old were you?

Connie Nam

I was eight or nine at that time.

Elliot Moss

Oh wow like really young. So these are these are actually formative years.

Connie Nam

Yeah formative years. And I mean, I could understand basic Korean, like a six year old Korean, but I couldn't understand sophisticated language or what the teacher was saying in maths class, or I didn't know any of the language because I was thrown into a local school and I think all of these experiences, you know, made me super observant that an empathetic.

Elliot Moss

And here we are in 2023 where we're in England, which is home, obviously this is home, right?

Connie Nam

Yes.

Elliot Moss

How and why did you choose here as home?

Connie Nam

Yeah so when I worked in banking, I worked for Credit Suisse and their European headquarters are in London. So I worked in London for five weeks initially for my analyst training and I just loved it here and then after that, three years on, I came back for I think around five weeks at that time as well and I loved it and I always knew that I wanted to come to London. I had to live in a cosmopolitan city because that's where I belong. So it was either New York, Hong Kong, I think London, those are the three comparable and I just loved London. You could be yourself. I feel like it's much more diverse than New York. New York is diverse, but I think in America there is this sense of having to be American. Whereas in London, I didn't feel like I had to be British, so I just felt a sense of belonging immediately.

Elliot Moss

And this is how long ago did you did you come to live here?

Connie Nam

So 14 years ago.

Elliot Moss

Okay, fine. So this is home?

Connie Nam

Yeah, this is home. This is my chosen home.

Elliot Moss

Chosen home. Good. Stay with me for much more from my business shaper and her chosen home. It's Connie Nam and she's the founder of Astrid & Miyu. We're going to be finding out about where her love affair for jewellery came from in a little bit more detail as well. She's coming back in a couple of minutes right now though we're going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series, which can be found on all the major podcast platforms.  Business Founders share their industry insights and practical advice for those of you thinking about getting into an industry and starting your very own thing. In this clip, Julie Dean, Founder of the Cambridge Satchel Company, confronts the idea that only a certain kind of person can be an entrepreneur.

You can enjoy all our former business shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very program again if you pop jazz shapers into your podcast platform of choice.  My guest today unless you haven't been listening, in which case naughty you is Connie Nam, Founder of Astrid & Miyu, the contemporary jewellery brand. The jewellery thing, so here we are, the banker turns into the fashionistery jewellery thing. Why, why was it going to be jewellery? Was there a, a shortlist of other things you might have done? And how did you alight definitely that this was going to be it?

Connie Nam

Yeah, firstly, I had a strong passion for jewellery because it brings back a lot of memories from childhood. I used to travel a lot as a child.  You know, living between Korea and America we used to travel a lot as well and my favourite pastime is going to markets and boutiques with my mom looking for jewellery, looking for trinkets, not, not expensive ones, just really rather cheap ones but they all meant something and my mom still has them and whenever I go back home to Korea, I look through her jewellery drawer just to bring back memories. So jewellery always had a special place in my heart.  That combined with me wanting to do something in fashion, I looked at different categories and apparel, shoes and bags were the other obvious choices but there were just so many cool brands that I felt like I couldn't compete with because they were, they had their designer names behind them, or it was just a very competitive market, whereas jewellery there were weren't that many branded jewellery at that time.

Elliot Moss

And when you went to those markets, can you cast your mind back to the first time you were with your mum and you were walking around? What was it? Is it is it simply the magpie? Because I mean, obviously, you know, there's the cliché about why women more than men, probably why they get drawn to something sparkly, all that but what specifically, if you can remember, was there a moment when you went, it's the blue of Baboon or it's the green emerald, I just love it.

Connie Nam

I think it was the warmth and the feeling of it, just the hustle and bustle with the market stall owners and the boutique owners and just the fact that I was bonding with my mum and my sister at that time, having that like girl moment. So it was all about the experience.

Elliot Moss

And how have you translated that? How have you kind of wrapped that up and put it inside the Astrid & Miyu experience?

Connie Nam

Yeah, that's a really good question. So that experience is the whole inspiration. It's less about the, you know, the glitter and the glamour, it's more about that warmth and the experience. So I, when I started in 2012, obviously there were resource constraints, so I started it with an e-commerce site, but I always knew that I wanted that physical space. So I always had pop ups. I was always there chatting to customers, asking them about their day, not trying to sell jewellery. So this is what I always tell my staff, you need to build relationship with the customers and you need to ask them and become friends with them and share that warmth. You're not selling jewellery. You're creating a moment and an experience, and you want people to feel like they belong in this space.

Elliot Moss

And how in the early days were you creating jewellery, which was as you call it, creating a moment? What was the inspiration for the very first range that you did if you can remember?

Connie Nam

Inspiration for the first…

Elliot Moss

Year, the very first thing.

Connie Nam

…jewellery collection.

Elliot Moss

The very first jewellery collection.

Connie Nam

Yeah, very first jewellery, that's a good question. So I think I can probably say in the UK we've created this demi fine jewellery category and it didn't exist at that time. So demi fine means it's not made out of fine materials, it's made from sterling silver or brass and it's plated, but it looks very fine. It looks like fine jewellery and now there's a lot of like great brands doing it. But at that time in 2012, we were the pioneers. And this actually existed back home in Korea for a long time.

Elliot Moss

Oh did it.

Connie Nam

Yeah. So I basically took the inspiration from what existed in Korea, what was very popular, and then brought it over here and that was the inspiration and I think it really resonated with a lot of influencers at that time and press because this category just didn't exist. So when we launched within the first two or three weeks, press just picked us up and my wish list of press got to see a shopping list and the stylist shopping list, and we were in both publications within the first two, three weeks.

Elliot Moss

And do you recall, I mean, were you there when you saw things being sold with, you know, in the early days, for instance?

Connie Nam

Yes I was.

Elliot Moss

And what did again, what did that feel like when you see someone actually buying the thing that you've designed?

Connie Nam

Oh it felt amazing. So when we had that first press piece with Grazia, I even remember the first customer’s name.

Elliot Moss

Go on.

Connie Nam

Yeah, her name was Amy Peters. Amy Hi. If you're there.

Elliot Moss

She probably is. Because you get super fans, right in this world.

Connie Nam

Yeah so she was the first customer who was not a friend of a friend or a family.

Elliot Moss

Someone that you hadn't pulled, twisted their arm and said, come on, please buy this.

Connie Nam

Yes, so I still remember her. And I think a few weeks later we did a pop up in a female co-working space and she came in and I knew who she was. So I was chatting to her and she was like, ‘oh I bought from you last week after the Grazia feature’.

Elliot Moss

You had to pretend.

Connie Nam

Are you Amy? I did, are you Amy? And I think she was a bit shocked.

Elliot Moss

Like literally said, are you Amy Peters and your age and I know exactly... I mean, you didn't do all that. No, you didn't spook her. She's like, you know, she's thinking, wow, you've got an amazing memory. You're like thinking, no, I've only sold three things.

Connie Nam

Yeah, Yeah

Elliot Moss

Literally, but you know, you’ve just got it, you’ve got a present like that.

Connie Nam

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

That's brilliant, that's brilliant. The thing I've read about you is this, obviously in the business is now 11, 12 years on and what happens as a business grows and I said earlier 23 stores and the online thing and you're growing and you're moving here and there is that of course you're managing a big operation. You become the CEO, you're no longer just the Founder. What's that been like for you in terms of the stresses and the tribulations of having to deal with less control rather than all the control you had in the world?

Connie Nam

It's been very stressful, but I'm glad that I made that transition. So in 2019, I had this moment. I hired this person who was brilliant, but I guess partially it came from my insecurity, I felt like she was criticising everything I was doing and I was suffering from imposter syndrome non-stop so at that time it just hit me and I thought, I need help. So I sought out for an executive coach who's with us, with the team and me until now. And she's really brought light to me saying, ‘You used to be a Founder, but you need to step up to be a CEO’ and what that means is you're not into the details. It doesn't matter like you've brought in these experts and you need to trust what they do and they're not criticising you. They're trying to make the business better.

Elliot Moss

So hard, though, right?

Connie Nam

It’s really hard.

Elliot Moss

Because if you just see something not quite right the way that Connie wants it, then what?  What does Connie do? Does Connie step back or does Connie say something?

Connie Nam

Yeah so the advice I give early stage Founders is, people can't do 100% as you would like., they might do 80%, but they might do that 20% through their own lens and they might make it even better. So you need to leave people to do it their way and give them autonomy if you want to get the best out of them. And obviously this is something I've learned along the way. It's easier to say now.

Elliot Moss

You're like saying it through gritted teeth. But do you, you've got to answer honestly now, do you do you think you enjoy this role as much as you enjoyed actually creating the business in those first few years when it was the hustle and bustle?

Connie Nam

Ooh that's a difficult question. I think the, I think they are very different. I do enjoy it now. I didn't enjoy the transition period, to be honest.

Elliot Moss

And what was the secret to getting through that transition period? Because a lot of people don't make it. I've got plenty of friends who they can build a business to excise X million turnover and they say, and then it's not for me, I'd rather go and start again. I'd rather go and set a new record label up, a new restaurant, whatever it might be but they know they're fabulous at the beginning and don't even try and go through the pain. What got you through the pain?

Connie Nam

I think it's a combination of sticking it through grit, and you also need to be lucky with your business model where you're making plenty of money so you can hire good people. So having a really strong team that compliments you so you can focus on the things that you love, I think is key to getting through it. So now I've got an amazing team, you know, half of my leadership team have grown with the business, which is amazing. So they know everything inside out about Astrid & Miyu. They do it the Astrid & Miyu way.  And then half of the leadership team are from more established businesses that have gone through very similar journeys. So they bring in a lot of external knowledge and just having them gel together and having them complement my skill sets and the entire team's skill sets, that's been key.

Elliot Moss

She's describing Nirvana.

Connie Nam

It is Nirvana at the moment.

Elliot Moss

It is Nirvana at the moment. No that's good.

Connie Nam

The moment, but it's been a very, very painful.

Elliot Moss

Yeah, Yeah I bet. Stay with me for my final chat with my guest today Connie Nam. And we've got some classic Candi Staton for you, too. That's in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.

Connie Nam is my business shaper just for a few more minutes here on Jazz Shapers. The purpose thing, the reason you set this business up, the stuff that you do with the Felix Project, which is about, I think giving food to young kids. I've known a few people over the years that are involved in it. The work that you do with the Bay Tree Centre, providing personal development activities and English classes and so on and so forth, the brand lab that you run, the accelerator, there's lots of things that you do which say, of course it's about the money, but actually I want to feel good about my life. Why is it important to you that you do want to feel good about your life?

Connie Nam

But doesn't anyone want…

Elliot Moss

Well I guess so, but some people do and they might do one thing or they might talk about it. But you've actually done stuff. That's the thing that intrigues me.

Connie Nam

Yeah. I think I've always been very purpose driven. My parents are very purpose driven. There were quite religious. We, I grew up going to Sunday School, which I don't, I don't go to Church anymore but I think that values driven approach to life has always been deeply ingrained in me and I always wanted to do something that's greater than, you know, making a living.

Elliot Moss

And which makes you proud now the most is? Is it, is it the other things that you're doing around the business or is it still at the core when you know you've created a winner on a new, a new collection?

Connie Nam

I think all of the above.

Elliot Moss

Is it?

Connie Nam

Yeah. I'm not going to lie that the business is not important because I'm super competitive and I want to be a winner, I want to be a category leader. But I think knowing that I'm doing good for the world and I'm developing people along the way and the most rewarding thing, to be honest, is seeing people, you know, especially people that grew up with the company, flourish.

Elliot Moss

And where does the business go from here? We're now sort of over a decade in. You've come along, you've created a buzz, as you said, very quickly, you were there on Grazia and Stylist and on that list, which by the way, even I look at. I’m able to just…

Connie Nam

Amazing.

Elliot Moss

… I know it's ridiculous. I've been doing this for a long time, I’ve got many... Well, it's like Astrid & Miyu, I'm something and something inside of me. Who knows? Let’s not go there that’s, that’s…

Connie Nam

I love that.

Elliot Moss

But you know none of us are straightforward, it is not a binary, being, being human is not binary. But for you, where do you now take this beautiful brand?

Connie Nam

So we've built a really beautiful cult brand around London. We're still much a very London centric brand. And last year we started opening regional stores, so now we've got quite a good regional following and last year we also opened our first store in New York, First International Store, and this year we opened our second New York store and we're creating a lot of buzz around there. So I think international expansion is on the cards in the next five years. I want to make Astrid & Miyu a truly global brand.

Elliot Moss

Do you want to go east as well?

Connie Nam

Yes. At some point.

Elliot Moss

Hong Kong maybe.

Connie Nam

I would start, I would start in Korea.

Elliot Moss

Seoul, you would start in Seoul.

Connie Nam

Seoul, yeah, I would start in Seoul because that's where I'm from.

Elliot Moss

Yeah.

Connie Nam

I've got friends there.

Elliot Moss

She returns.

Connie Nam

Yeah, Yeah.

Elliot Moss

She has conquered many parts of the world. Here she is our very own, ladies and gentlemen, it's Connie Nam.

Connie Nam

I mean, I would love that. My parents would be proud.

Elliot Moss

I bet.

Connie Nam

Seoul has become a very, like, cool epicentre for fashion.

Elliot Moss

And technology and all sorts, I mean it’s extraordinary, extraordinary country, has been for many years. Well, that will be fun. That will be a lot of fun.

Connie Nam

Yeah I think so.

Elliot Moss

It's great. I mean, I love that ambition and, and for the UK though, is it just more of the same or have you got specific plans?

Connie Nam

Ooh, watch this space.

Elliot Moss

Ah. Are you in Bicester Village as well?

Connie Nam

We are in Bicester Village.

Elliot Moss

And you're there for a sort of 12 month period.

Connie Nam

Yeah, we're there for a pop up and we're currently looking into a different format of retail which will launch next year so.

Elliot Moss

Where people float, they don't walk into a store, they are lifted.

Connie Nam

Oh that's a good idea.

Elliot Moss

A different format, okay, cool. Okay well that will be interesting.

Connie Nam

Well I’ll need, I'll need a scientist to do that.

Elliot Moss

And I should have asked, what's the welding? Is this the welding fixing, is it fixing jewellery or it making…

Connie Nam

Yes, it’s so, so I've got my welded bracelet here.

Elliot Moss

Oh yes.  Gorgeous.

Connie Nam

So we have jewellers. Jewellers with welding machines sitting in all of our stores, and they weld the solid gold chains onto your wrists permanently so you don't have clasp around.

Elliot Moss

Okay. Which means it won't fall off. How do you how do you get them off though?

Connie Nam

They won’t fall off.

Elliot Moss

How do you do that?

Connie Nam

Well, you can cut them off. You can come to our store and cut them off. If you wanted to do an MRI scan. And if you have you know, imminent surgery, you can ask the welder to put a clasp on so.

Elliot Moss

So let’s hope you don't have surgery. But if you do, you can go back and get it cut off.

Connie Nam

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

It's been so nice talking to Connie.

Connie Nam

Likewise.

Elliot Moss

Thank you, thank you for spending some time with me.  Just before I let you disappear back to the w

Connie Nam

Come Away With Me by Norah Jones. This is me and my husband's favourite song, and we actually went to Norah Jones concert a few weeks ago. She, she is my all-time favourite artist.

Elliot Moss

That was Norah Jones with Come Away With Me, the song choice of my business shaper today, Connie Nam. She talked about having empathy from being an outsider, both when she was in Korea as a Korean-American and in America as an American-Korean. She talked about creating a moment or an experience, and that's at the heart of Astrid & Miyu and that's a really nice way of thinking about any business, actually, beyond the category itself. And finally, as she moves from that role of Founder to CEO of a big organisation, focus on the things that you love doing and that's going to be your way through it. Great stuff.  That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.

We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.

Connie Nam launched Astrid & Miyu in 2012, trying to solve her personal pain points of not being able to find well made, well designed jewellery pieces with an exciting brand experience. The inspiration comes from her childhood travels around the world. Her favourite past time as going to markets with her mum and sister and picking out jewellery that always had a story. She wanted to bring the warmth and story telling to the high street.  

Prior to founding Astrid & Miyu, she started her career in investment banking and also worked in luxury branding at LVMH. She has an MBA from London Business School. Although she has a traditional business pedigree, she identifies as a creative thinker. During her formative years, she grew up between South Korea and America, due to her father’s job as a diplomat. Whilst being stuck between two cultures she always felt different and a bit of an outsider in both worlds. This is why “inclusivity” is so important to her in running her business. She recently launched her own podcast, speaking candidly to founders at experts at UNBOXED. She currently lives in London with her husband and two young girls.  

Highlights

I really wanted to create a brand where everyone feels beautiful in their own skin and everyone can be themselves. 

I just had a hunch that there was a gap in the market for affordable, well-designed jewellery. 

In London I didn't feel like I had to be British, so I immediately felt a sense of belonging. 

I had a strong passion for jewellery because it brings back a lot of memories from my childhood.  

Having a really strong team that complements you, so you can focus on the things that you love, is key to getting through it. Now, I've got an amazing team. 

I'm super competitive and I want to be a winner. But I think knowing that I'm doing good for the world and I'm developing people along the way is also important. 

The most rewarding thing, to be honest, is seeing people, especially those who grew up with the company, flourish. 

Seoul has become a very cool epicentre for fashion. 

I think international expansion is on the cards in the next five years. I want to make Astrid & Miyu a truly global brand. 

We've built a really beautiful cult brand around London. We're still very much a London-centric brand. 

I think I've always been very purpose-driven. My parents are very purpose-driven. 

I think that a values-driven approach to life has always been deeply ingrained in me and I always wanted to do something that's greater than just making a living. 

Half of the leadership team are from more established businesses that have gone through very similar journeys. They bring in a lot of external knowledge and complement my skill sets and the entire team's skill sets. 

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