Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the pioneers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. For this very special Jazz Shapers Encore, we welcome back a past Business Shaper, Mr Richard Hilton. He first joined me back in 2013. After a stint working in advertising in New York, Richard returned to London and quickly realised that UK gyms, sterile with no atmosphere and generic music, were miles behind those in New York. Driven to make gyms better, Richard launched the first Gymbox in Holborn, London, 2003 offering high energy workouts in a nightclub setting with live music and classes like Show Wrestling, American Football Fitness and Rave Yoga – and I was a member for a number of years too. After twelve years of building the brand to ten sites and over 30,000 members, Richard sold most of his stake in Gymbox and was, as he says, “excited about retirement” but it wasn’t to be. Drawn to the rising competitive socialising inspired by the Waltzers and whack-a-moles at Hampstead Fair, Richard and co-founders Paul Campbel and Andrew Myers, launched Fairgame in 2022 in London’s Canary Wharf, an adults only, neon, tech enhanced indoor fairground with games, cocktails and street food and I can testify the street food is rather delicious. It’s really nice to see you. It isn’t the first time I’ve seen you since 2013, I confess we have caught up a fair few times, danced together, I think I had you on my shoulders at some point and I’ve also gone to see Fairgame. But let’s just go back, we, when we, when we did chat for the first time in 2013, very different world for Richard Hilton. You were ensconced a good few years into your business, or ten, ten years or so. What was life like then, as you recall it? Were you thinking about, I’m going to get out of this at some point or was it a very different headspace for you?
Richard Hilton
I think in 2013 I was still very much on the expansion trail for Gymbox so at that point I wasn’t thinking about selling it or changing it, I was just thinking about growing the business. Funnily enough, about a year later in 2014, a new private equity house came in and I did start thinking okay, how big do I want to take this brand and where do I want to be myself in a few years, so I think the sort of inflection point was in 2014, I thought well maybe it is time to transition the business and perhaps think about selling out. The problems was, the business was so surrounded in myself that I did everything that when you know when I mentioned this to the private equity house, it was shock horror, oh how can the business survive. So, you have to plan getting out of these businesses, you can’t do it overnight and so the plan was put in place in about 2014, I’d subtly changed my name from CEO to Founder on my titles and we’d internally promoted the Sales Director into the position of CEO, so it was very subtle to begin with but it was a conscious plan from 2014 of let’s get on this trajectory of me stepping back and the business moving on.
Elliot Moss
But for someone who had created this business they’re a bit of a rebel, bit of a naughty boy, Richard, not quite unteachable but I imagine tricky in the classroom. For somebody who kind of was always going to run his own thing and then created his own thing, you know, that and as you said, it was you, you were synonymous with Gymbox, that being a bit more grownup and getting a bit structured and bringing in people and looking like a serious business to private equity and whoever else, that must have been a bit of a gear change.
Richard Hilton
I, I think that was, that was part of the reason that I wanted to sell it, was in the early days it’s all about creating havoc and creating a rebel brand and upsetting the status quo and then when you’re into a multimillion pound business, it becomes a lot more systemised and I think I started realising the systemisation of the business wasn’t what I enjoyed doing, what I enjoyed doing was the marketing and creating the brand and creating trouble.
Elliot Moss
Did you though even though you say the systemised bit wasn’t what you wanted to do, obviously ten years in, that business was running pretty well, I imagine.
Richard Hilton
Yeah, the systems were in place and it was running smoothly and you, you know, even the best creative brands in the world have strong systems you know and a strong set up, so the systems were there, I just found for my own personal enjoyment, you know, the Halcion days I felt were a little bit behind me in terms of the risks you were taking, the fun that we were having, so it started becoming a bit more routine and as soon as it became routine for me is the day I realised well maybe it’s time for me to step back. And I was also conscious that while the business was worth quite a lot of money, unfortunately I wasn’t because it was all tied up in the business.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me to find out much more about what happened to Richard Hilton and the money transferring from the business to him, maybe, we’ll soon find out.
This is a Jazz Shapers Encore special, he’s the founder of Gymbox, co-founder of Fairgame and we were talking about a kind of an inflection point, as you said, around 2014 where you were honest with yourself and I think that’s a really big part of this, going, “I like creating, I am rebellious, I like the marketing but the systems, they’re in place but it’s not for me.” Once you’ve made that decision though Richard, how do you kind of keep the focus because there’s a couple of years gestation. Are you then, because I’ve read a couple of, you’ve said a lot of things, you recently interviewed in The Times and you go, you know, “if you set the business up just to make money, you’re in trouble” but at that point, there is a financial endgame and you have done the hard yards, so how did you keep focussed on what was still important in the business?
Richard Hilton
I think the way I always looked at it is if you do what’s right for the business, the business will do what’s right by you, so even though I felt I wanted to transition and, and realise the equity value, I was still conscious of the fact that a) I didn’t know the timings, and b) I was leaving, I was leaving the sort of the baby to my management team, who I had a lot of friendship with and respect for, so I didn’t want to leave the business in any worse position than as if I was running it.
Elliot Moss
Was it hard leaving the baby?
Richard Hilton
Err, no. I found it surprisingly easy, so, what, what I realise is, as much as I love the business and loved creating the business, I didn’t have a strong emotional attachment, so the day the sale went through which was a process in itself and it’s quite a dramatic experience selling a business in terms of you know the journey you go on but I never looked back for one day with regret at thinking I wish I’d held onto it.
Elliot Moss
And then there’s that moment when the money is in the account and you know, I don’t often ask, so people don’t like to talk about money and I don’t, I’m not interested in amounts, it was more than £10.50 I’m sure, but when you look at that, do you go, “That’s what this is about”, do you go, “That’s nice”, do you just kind of go, “Okay” and move on, I mean where’s the headspace when you actually realise it’s gone through?
Richard Hilton
Well, in the process of getting it there, I thought it was genuinely going to change me, so once that money was in the bank, I would be a happy-go-lucky person and the relationship with my wife would be absolutely perfect because we’d have nothing to argue about anymore. The reality is, is slightly different so, initially, yes there’s a huge relief and it’s like taking off this wet coat that you don’t need to worry about money anymore and you don’t need to sweat on school fees or worry about the cost of a meal and that pressure is off. So, there’s an initial delight but then there’s a realisation or a dawning of well, what do I do with myself now and I’d spent so long creating the business, driving the business, giving my all to the business and it wasn’t, it’s not a 9 to 5 when you have your own business, it’s 24/7 and I always say it’s like a, it was like a tap, it was running full speed and then it literally just turns off and then you’ve got this vacuum of time to fill.
Elliot Moss
And how did you start filling the time?
Richard Hilton
So, initially, I thought I’ll spend it with playing a bit of golf, spend more time with the wife and kids, and I realised that there’s only so much golf you can play with octogenarians.
Elliot Moss
But I did read you wanted to be a professional golfer, which I didn’t know until I’d…
Richard Hilton
That was, that was a…
Elliot Moss
Were you like that for like a thirty second moment?
Richard Hilton
Yeah, I think that went, that was at the age of my teenage years and unfortunately, anyone who has played golf with me realised that was a, that was never going to happen except in my brain. So, initially I played a bit more golf and spent some more time with the wife and kids but the reality is, my wife didn’t want me there, the kids didn’t want me there, so you end up in this sort of, sort of strange space of well what do you do with your time and I think if, for me at least, I wasn’t prepared for it because I’d always sort of thought don’t curse it, don’t think about what you’re going to do after the transaction, just get the, just get the sale done and then figure it out afterwards, so I was completely unprepared for that life event.
Elliot Moss
And, and was there a moment when you went, “What’s my purpose?" Was there that because obviously when you’re so absorbed for thirteen years in a pursuit and you are, you’re a very single-minded person.
Richard Hilton
There’s definitely, there’s a little bit of that so it is, you know, you spend a lot of time walking the dog and you know, I have an active mind, so if my mind’s not engaged with business, once business is gone, you’re saying well, what is this all about, what am I going to do? And your mind sort of goes into areas that frankly you don’t really want it to go into.
Elliot Moss
We’ll find out where those, his mind went and maybe, if he tells me. It’s my Business Shaper today, it’s Richard Hilton, founder of Gymbox and co-founder at Fairgame, he’ll be coming back in a couple of minutes. Right now though, we’re going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series, which you can find on all the major podcast platforms. In this instance, Natasha Knight invites business founders to share their industry insights and practical advice for those of you thinking of starting your very own thing. In this clip focussed on entering the Arts industries, we hear from Fabian Riggall, he was the founder of Secret Cinema and now the founder of Lost.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today is Richard Hilton, founder of Gymbox, the fitness brand and the co-founder and CEO of Fairgame, the immersive fairground experience. So we’re, I kind of got in my head that there’s this person existing called Richard Hilton, he’s done the big thing, he’s, he feels really lucky, feels really blessed that things have worked out but he’s a tad bored and he’s sort of wondering what he’s going to do next. At what point did the idea for Fairgame start formulating in your head?
Richard Hilton
It happened gradually and I think boredom is, was the right word, you feel incredibly sort of blessed that this event’s happened and then you’re sort of saying okay but what’s the next step?
Elliot Moss
Especially as you said, the tap’s been turned off and you’ve been at it and you’ve got a hundred things that you do every day and so then you’re going down to what time do I walk the dog?
Richard Hilton
Yeah, and I’m 45 years of age.
Elliot Moss
Which is, which is young.
Richard Hilton
And, and you realise once you’ve raided the fridge three times during lunchtime and watched an hour’s Judge Judy, this is not, this is not what life is about.
Elliot Moss
This is not your life. What am I going to do next and it’s not another episode of Judge Judy. So, sorry, you, the ideas started forming.
Richard Hilton
So, so, the idea, so you know the idea starts of forming and then another competitive socialising business asked me to come in and would I entertain being chairman of their business? And competitive socialising, which essentially is you know an activity while people eat and drink, it was relatively new. Anyway, I went into the business and was sort of blown away, it was full of people and they showed me the numbers and the numbers were great and I was quite excited about this idea of doing something in this sector and that sort of got me thinking and had various conversations with Paul and Andrew and said okay, what could we do? Golf is done, dance has been done, is there something unique out there which is really special, which has a, and what I liked about sort of golf was it had a sense of the nostalgia, is there something nostalgic but could be different, so every game could be different and varied and we were having this conversation for about a period of a year and then at some point there was a lightbulb moment and I think it was probably started by, we went to the fair with the kids at an outdoor fairground and while it’s sort of not what you want from a business because it’s a bit grotty and downmarket and…
Elliot Moss
Muddy.
Richard Hilton
…muddy, and it’s always raining, you’re absolutely right and the rides are really, the, the activities are really short because they’re there to basically get as many people through them as quick as you can but if you take a step back and you look at those, the games, the shooting game or the basketball game, you actually think the games are brilliant but nobody’s ever taken them indoors, put tech behind them so you can make it competitive and you’ve got live scoreboards and surrounded it with great food and drink, and it was as simple as that, as soon as we thought okay, is there something in this, we’re on this path of this is either madness or it’s genius.
Elliot Moss
But that’s great, but that is very you, Richard, in the sense that Gymbox was the same thing, you seem to have these moments, it may not be an epiphany but there’s a thing that goes “ooh that would be kind of interesting.” Have you always been like that ever since you can remember?
Richard Hilton
I think I’ve always had a naturally inquisitive mind and I like thinking well, how could something be improved? So when you looked at the gym business, how could you improve on what was already existing?
Elliot Moss
But as a kid though, I mean, you know we, we before Gymbox, when you were you know going through school and I think you were a boarder as well, I mean did those, were there performative moment that made Richard this sort of, I don’t know if what’s in front of me is very interesting, I think maybe I need to smash it up a bit.
Richard Hilton
Well, yes and no. So, as a, you know, as a student I was utterly forgettable with all my teachers, I don’t think anyone would ever remember me and I sort of made a conscious decision, it wasn’t unconscious, it was a conscious decision at the age of about 14 where I knew in my brain, I wasn’t going to go to university because I couldn’t quite figure out, a) I wasn’t academic and b) I couldn't figure out how I was going to apply this into later life. So, I was quite sort of steadfast in my view of I don’t want to do the university route. Ironically, since I’ve now had kids, that’s the total opposite of what I want for them but I wasn’t, I wasn’t a natural creative with ideas constantly sparking, it was I sort of had a feeling of what I wanted to do and I was quite immoveable so if I wanted to go down a path, I was quite strong on that view but it wasn’t like I was this maverick when I was a child.
Elliot Moss
Did risk ever enter your mind or was it more of a compulsion that I’m not going to sit here watching Judge Judy?
Richard Hilton
So I’m probably not wired right when it comes to risk. So, when I look at a business or doing an opportunity, I think that the chances of success with me doing it are minimised. Where the reality is it’s…
Elliot Moss
Do you? So you really back yourself?
Richard Hilton
I, I back myself but not in an, not in a, in an arrogant way because I’m pretty sure I will get it wrong at some point, which is also actually another think which I think is actually a strength because I’m always slightly paranoid that I’m going to get it wrong, I’m always looking for protections to make sure it doesn’t go wrong, so I’m constantly looking at angles and saying alright how do you protect if this happens or if that happens? But, yeah, I have a, I think now that it’s, I think with Gymbox I sort of finished the journey and I thought well okay that worked really, really well but was it all luck and there was a lot of luck on that journey, so there was a sort of a nagging doubt in my head as saying were you good at what you did or was it, was it luck and the reality is, when you look at it, I ran the business for fifteen years or there abouts, so it couldn’t have been luck for fifteen years.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, I was going to say, that’s, you’re being pretty tough on yourself there.
Richard Hilton
But then I thought well can you do it again? Or was the idea a lucky idea?
Elliot Moss
He’s just keeping, just going look, Richard, you’re just a failure, right, well let’s be clear, there’s nothing in it, I mean, but where does that come from, that, you’re very hard on yourself?
Richard Hilton
I think it, I think it comes from, I want to prove it to myself again. So I said okay, can you do it again? And not only can you do it again, can you do it in a completely different sector? Because doing it in the gym business is, you’ve done it, I was tired of the gym sector.
Elliot Moss
But where does that come from, joking aside, where does that desire to prove it to yourself because you know you, again, looking from the outside, I don’t know you’ve got anything to prove and yet something’s telling you you’ve got to, you’ve got to go again, you’ve got, you’ve got to make sure it’s clear that there is some inherent talent in there rather than forces conspired positively.
Richard Hilton
Well you’ve got to do something with your time so, with the way, the way I was looking at it was, if I’m not challenging myself and trying to do another business, what, what am I going to do? So, I think part of it was, you know, I was 45 years of age when I sold Gymbox, took nine months to a year out, I’m still relatively young, so let’s throw another challenge and I still felt young and I still felt I wanted to try it again and the alternative of sitting around the house and driving everyone mad wasn’t, wasn’t that attractive to me.
Elliot Moss
Did you feel better immediately you had a plan? That you started building something, is that when you go into a different space, mentally?
Richard Hilton
Yeah, I think I go onto a more sort of focussed mindset and I have a different energy about me, so if I’m around the house, I’m like everyone else, you sort of relax and you watch a bit of TV but when I’m doing work, I’m actually probably at my best in terms of motivated, excited, engaging, I really, I think I’ve come to the conclusion I really, I really enjoy it, although I have promised myself I won’t do it again, this is, this will be the last business but…
Elliot Moss
I do not believe you. You’ve not…
Richard Hilton
Now my wife doesn’t think I will ever retire either.
Elliot Moss
You’re not convincing me, I don’t think retiring is an option for you. Stay with me for my final chat with Richard Hilton, he’ll be back in a moment. We’ve also got some Gabriels for you as well, that’s coming up here on Jazz FM.
I am with Richard Hilton just for a few more minutes here on Jazz Shapers. The thing I haven’t mentioned today yet and I want to talk about is, you and the way you’ve built teams and you, you know the fact that Gymbox, big team, lots of humans, and yes there’s the tech in Fairgame but actually, having visited with you and as I wasn’t joking, the food was excellent – this is not a commercial – but it was really, really tasty. You know everyone and I know you’ve got one site at the moment and I’m sure there’s going to be more but your vibe with that team seems important to you. Tell me a little bit about what you enjoy about building teams, still, second time round?
Richard Hilton
I think any business is only as good as, as the people and I’ve always tried to create a positive culture and you know, the thinking is very, very simple, is people enjoy coming to work the your customers and your members, when it was a gym, would thrive off that, so I’ve always tried to lead by getting to know who works in the business, trying to make their journey for however long or short they want it to be, an enjoyable experience and to try and lead with a bit of positivity and compassion.
Elliot Moss
On the other side of that there’s standards and there’s stuff that needs to be done and there’s Richard Hilton’s attention to detail, you know, the taps have to be right, the sinks, the signage, colours, the logos, the experience, the tech, the user interface, everything. How do you balance that? How do you ensure that you get people that go, yeah, I love the compassion and all that but actually I know I’ve got to deliver at a very high level, always.
Richard Hilton
I don’t think high standards fly in the face of a positive culture, so I think standards always have to be, any business I want to it to be, I want it to be perfect.
Elliot Moss
And why, why is that actually out of interest? Where’s this drive for perfection because I, I sense from you, and we know each other anyway, but your focus is, is pretty unusual, Richard, I mean, I meet lots of people who’ve done what you do and their focus is pretty unusual. Why is it so focussed on the attention to detail on the next challenge? What’s the driver?
Richard Hilton
Every aspect of that business, I want it to be as good as it can be, whether it’s the culture, whether it’s the cleanliness, whether it's the food, whether it's the drinks because I think ultimately, that is what is going to create the best business and the best experience for our customers and I think if the customers see a lightbulb out, they may not register there’s a lightbulb out but something in their subconscious registers that this business isn’t quite on top of things so, I take it very personally that I want nothing scratched, nothing damaged, people wearing the right uniform, people to be happy and positive and I think it’s ultimately the best businesses are the ones that keep their focus on the attention to detail.
Elliot Moss
And just finally before we, we’re going to run out of time and I’m going to ask you what your song choice is but just thinking about you know the honesty you said, you know I got the money and I wasn’t, it didn’t make me happy. When through the journey of the different, of the cycles of the business, when are you at your happiest? When have you got that moment of joy despite the natural paranoia that ensure that you are addressing things? You know, when do you actually go okay, I’m feeling pretty good about this, because I don’t hear you say it very much but I know you want to have a positive culture and I know you want your customers or your members as it was to enjoy themselves.
Richard Hilton
I think the, my ultimate joy is the day before they open, so when everything looks absolutely perfect and the marketing is exactly how I want it to be and the design is on point and the staff are happy and motivated, that is probably my highlight. And the day it opens and people come in and they mess around with the detail and change bits and pieces, it starts waning for me a little bit and then it’s for me, it’s about now I’ve done my part, hand it on to the operational team and let’s get on with the next venue.
Elliot Moss
I forget the name of the philosopher but it’s something like ‘football is a very simple game made complicated by the opposition’. It’s sort of that thing, if they only weren’t there, everything would be perfect. You are an idealist after all. It’s been lovely talking to you again and thank you for coming back and being so honest about the journey Version 2, I’m sure there will be another journey, I think your wife is right, I think you will be going again but only time will tell. And also you’ll still be a young, a young person in another five years. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Richard Hilton
It’s The Bird by Charlie Parker and I chose it because when I was living in New York in the 1990s, my father gave me a few jazz CDs and Charlie Parker was the one I gravitated to the most.
Elliot Moss
Charlie Parker there with The Bird, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Richard Hilton. He talked about liking to create havoc but also of course as the businesses develop, the importance of systems to underpin the havoc. He talked about his own sense of paranoia about getting it wrong and how that has driven him and I love this thought, this point about loving the moment, the day before they open, in his case things that are for the public, he loves that sense of perfection and boy does that drive him. Great stuff. That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.