Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
That was Mavis Staples with her take of Son of a Preacher Man. Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today, I’m very pleased to say, is David Abrahamovitch, founder and CEO of coffee brand Grind. Having co-founded a tech business while still a university student and raising by the way around 10 million quid from one of Europe’s leading VCs, David’s career took a major turn. When his father passed away, David inherited his dad’s mobile phone store in Shoreditch, a building that he actually felt connected to and despite as David says having barely made a coffee, he and DJ friend Kaz James, turned it into a coffee shop with a café by day, cocktail bar by night concept, selling espresso martinis. Where was I? Definitely not there. Faced with a Covid pandemic that was crushing the high street, David’s deliberate strategic decision to become a direct to consumer business led to an explosion in demand for their at home products such as compostable pods and indeed the coffee machines themselves. Grind now has 14 outlets across London, including coffee trucks and their grocery and wholesale business grown from a standing start in 2022 now represents a third of their business. And they’re the exclusive supplier to Soho House and can even be found on British Airways. So you could have a Grind coffee while listening to Jazz Shapers on BA High Life, what a life that would be. I’ll be talking to David imminently. And the music in today’s Jazz Shapers comes from Poncho Sanchez, BB King, Bill Laurance and here’s Aaron Neville with Hercules.
Aaron Neville there with Hercules, how lovely was that. David Abrahamovitch is my Business Shaper today, he is founder of Grind. Amazing packaging, may I say, as a consumer.
David Abrahamovitch
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
Lovely to have you here. Slightly strange place to start but you’ve made this thing out of thin air. It’s taken about ten-fifteen years, why? I mean I know I started at the beginning and said this is what happened and needs must and all that but why did it become what it’s become today? Why is there a pink pod? Why is there an attitude? Why is it doing the things it’s doing?
David Abrahamovitch
It’s a good question. People often ask “Why?”. I think because I started in the, in the circumstances that you described and then it really has been just one thing leading to another and it’s obviously been intentional on my part and I’ve obviously been looking for the next thing and to keep growing the business and I think part of what makes Grind a brand that some people quite like is, is having watched it evolves so, rather than it being designed from the beginning, it has evolved, you know first it was coffee, then it was coffee and cocktails, then it was much bigger spaces where you could eat all day and then we moved online, compostable coffee pods into grocery, onto British Airways flights as you’ve described so, look I think, I think the ‘why’ is probably me because I’ve kept trying to push it forward and move the business into new areas, obviously lots of other people do, do the vast majority of the hard work but I guess I have been looking always for okay, where can we take the business next.
Elliot Moss
And were you always going to run your own thing, David?
David Abrahamovitch
So, I grew up with my dad being very entrepreneurial, setting his own diary, doing whatever he liked and my working you know quite serious, corporate jobs and I think I took a good balance of those two things. I definitely thought that being my dad looked more fun on a day to day basis than, than being my mum, who worked really, really hard and I realise now who worked really hard to make sure that there was stability around the, the peaks and the troughs that an entrepreneurial journey can, can deliver. I briefly tried going to work for a large bank, which shall remain nameless, in their treasury department or something as an internship that someone arranged for me. That was a great way to realise what I didn’t want to do and that made it really clear to me, okay, yeah, no, I do not want to follow the kind of banking and finance path and I think definitely, if I look back, you know there was a lot of kind of leadership stuff and I think there was probably a desire to do my own thing and you mentioned about the VC backed business, one of the problems there was I was a co-founder when it suited some of the other founders and I was an employee when it, when it didn’t and even though we’re a co-founding team of four, we were, we were twenty years younger than the guys that had actually founded it and I found that dynamic quite difficult so, when I ended up creating, creating Grind and it was kind of completely my own and I was completely in charge, I definitely, that definitely felt good to be able to be in control of my own destiny.
Elliot Moss
And, and just linking back to your dad and I want to come onto losing your dad in a bit, if that’s okay, was it seductive that bit of it, like you talked about your mum and obviously she brought stability and all that but was there something in you that just got more excited intrinsically by looking at what your dad was up to versus your mum?
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, definitely. The, the kind of the level to which I just watched him do stuff and create businesses and create offshoots of existing businesses and how varied his day to day seemed to be. And then I, you know I worked in so, you know the first door is Shoreditch Grind, it’s a small circular building on Old Street roundabout in East London, I worked in that building as a teenager, as a summer job and I would call business customers and sell to them or I would problem solve for them or I would fix the phones upstairs, you know physically with a screwdriver, this was in the days of Nokias and Ericcsons and you know I was, I did the training to repair the phones and so I kind of, I think I got a little bit of a bug of just running your own thing, selling, managing, problem solving and the kind of things you get to do when you have your own business as opposed to being very specialised in a, in a profession. And I think the idea of building, I think there must be something intrinsic in the idea of building.
Elliot Moss
I mentioned your dad and obviously, how long ago did your dad die?
David Abrahamovitch
Unbelievably, it was fifteen years this weekend actually.
Elliot Moss
Right, I lost my dad not that long ago and I was floored, if I’m honest with you, in a way that I never expected to be.
David Abrahamovitch
I’m sorry to hear that.
Elliot Moss
No, thank you, thank you and obviously I’m sorry to hear about your dad. These are, these are things which you kind of, you read about, you hear about, you talk to your mates and then it happens to you.
David Abrahamovitch
Yep.
Elliot Moss
How did you get through that time and then manage at the same time to have piece of mind to go you know what, I’m going to go into this new business? Because that’s the bit I find kind of extraordinary, based on how I felt when my dad died.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, look, rightly or wrongly I didn’t feel like I had a choice because the business existed, it was there, it had, had a handful of staff, it was trading, it had customers so, there was slightly, you know there was a need to go do something with that and so it wasn’t necessarily a choice. So the, well the choices felt like close it down, hand the keys to the building back and even though you know we don’t have the freehold of the building, we had a long lease and I feel like it’s ours even though it’s not, or find a way to reinvent it and do something with the building to keep it in my life and looking back now, it’s like why do you care about a building, like why does it, why does it matter, but I don’t know, it did at the time and so…
Elliot Moss
But maybe it was the connection to dad.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, exactly, yeah for sure but you know I probably could have given the building up and would have still been fine but I felt instinctively like we weren’t going to do that and I was going to turn it into something and you know I, I had conversations with him about the fact that you know with East London changing, this is 2011, the Olympics are coming in 2012, Shoreditch is core, I was like, we both recognised this building was wasted as a phone shop, it should be a meeting place, should be something like a coffee shop or a wine bar so, the kind of the genesis of that idea was, was already there before he, before he got ill and passed away so, I don’t know, probably a therapist would tell me that it was something about living out that collective vision you know in his absence or something like that.
Elliot Moss
The, the way you talk about it, not your dad but this other thing, it just feels like it’s common sense and we’ve just met but you feel like you’ve got a lot of that. It doesn't sound complicated, a lot of people sweat this stuff and they go ooh, it could be this, it could be that, and I read a bit about all these business plans you wrote to kind of fake the fact that you could raise some money, loans here and loans there and then in the end the…
David Abrahamovitch
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Elliot Moss
No, but do you know what I mean, like the, but you raised the money for, for a real thing and the 500 quid from your mum to stick in the till.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, that’s true, absolutely true as well.
Elliot Moss
You know that’s all true and I know that’s true but this is again, it’s needs, it’s needs must, how have you, were you just brought up like that? Was it a very uncomplicated sort of practical set of role modelling that you had around you?
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, I think it, I think it was, I think my dad kind of didn’t believe in doing as he was told necessarily and didn’t believe in following the path that you were told to follow and so that didn’t mean breaking all of the rules, that just, that meant being selective about which of the rules you felt were valid and not, and the kind of, the fact that they are a rule or an instruction is like well I’ll be the, I’ll be the arbiter of if I think it’s a good rule and I’m going to follow it or not, as opposed to kind of respect for all rules and all norms at all times, which I definitely, you know, that, that for sure was him and my sister has the same, the same kind of instincts as well.
Elliot Moss
Does that mean you don’t worry about what people think?
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, I think it, I think, I think that’s a big part of it for sure.
Elliot Moss
Because that is again, you, you know, we all know people and most people do worry.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
About ooh if I say that and I’m saying no to that, they’re not going to like that but it doesn’t sound like that bothers you.
David Abrahamovitch
No, I wouldn’t, that certainly doesn’t deeply bother me, that is, that is for sure.
Elliot Moss
Is that important do you think in people that are founders, do you think you have to have a sense that it doesn’t matter what it might look like because actually it’s only what’s important is what you think?
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, I think, I think that’s probably quite a good thing for life in general. I think, I think I would probably re-frame it, I think I care loads about what a very tiny group of people think and beyond that, I don’t care that much at all. I think probably as you go through life, the number of people that you, you really truly care about, that gets smaller and smaller. I think, I think if you look at that through the lens of the business, what we didn’t do, you know and Kaz was heavily involved in setting up the first store, what we didn’t do was think about what people wanted, we felt that we knew what people wanted and we kind of built it for ourselves and clearly, the business is very different now, much bigger and of course we do customer feedback and customer surveys and we talk to our customers and we hear what they’re saying, which is amazing and that, that’s where loads of the best ideas come from, but I think there’s a, there’s a place early on in particular for just having a view on what it should look like and what it should be and going with it and iterating from there rather than kind of designing by committee in the early days because it made no sense to open a coffee shop next door to a Starbucks on Old Street roundabout with no experience in 2011.
Elliot Moss
As you describe that going, yeah, that’s a 2 out of 10.
David Abrahamovitch
Yep, it made no sense, right, like hospitality is incredibly challenging, it made no sense on paper, but part of the beauty of being 24 or 25, 24 I think I was, is that you kind of don’t pause for breath, I’ve never really been a big let’s stop and really deeply think about this, I think I’m much more, I’m going to listen to your point of view and your point of view and your point of view, and then I’m going to decide which one makes the most sense and which combination and then we’re going to go and do that and you don’t always get it right but I think you have to be quite decisive if you’re going to lead any kind of organisation. I think part of the beauty of being 25 was not stopping and just cracking on.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me for much more from my Business Shaper, David Abrahamovitch, he’s coming back in a couple of minutes and I’m pretty sure he will be back because he seems a decisive sort of fellow. Right now though let’s hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series, which you can find on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their practical advice and industry insights for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip we hear from Robert Elding, founder and CEO of MyStoryboarder, an AI powered platform aiming to revolutionise visual storytelling and indeed content creation for businesses, creatives and marketeers.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favourite podcast platform, whatever that may be. My guest today is David Abrahamovitch, founder and CEO of coffee brand Grind. I read somewhere that you sort of said “I had no knowledge of coffee” and I mean obviously we all, you know, we’re, if you drink coffee, you have some knowledge but it’s a bit like wine, you drink wine, it doesn't mean you really know. How do you square away no knowledge and confidence because the two usually, there is a correlation David, a positive one which is when I know stuff, I am confident.
David Abrahamovitch
Yep.
Elliot Moss
You didn’t know stuff, so how did you manage to go, you know what it’s going to be alright.
David Abrahamovitch
Youth. In one word. Yeah, I, it’s a really good question and I don’t know, I just, I felt like, I felt like the bar was pretty low and that’s not in any way, you know, being too mean to the competition but the reality of walking around London trying to find a coffee versus trying to do that in another city, it wasn’t, the options weren’t great, they were the very large chains who are doing kind of low quality coffee with whipped cream and lots of other stuff or independents who were doing a great job of making really good coffee but they weren’t, by and large, doing a great job of letting people know where they were, making it easy for the customer to find them, to come, to pay, to use a card without there being a minimum charge, you know these were the days of you can’t pay with your card, cash only, all that kind of stuff, no proper loyalty programme, took forever to get in and out, the toilet was out of order, you know the environment looked like you know no one had spent any real money on the environment, you know there was nothing uplifting or exciting about the environment so, I felt like the product was out there and was great in some of the independents at the time but no one had really kind of formalised that and upgraded it a little bit and…
Elliot Moss
And did you put all that, I mean what you just described is sort of standard operation procedure for a really good hospitality business, did you sort of go well I’m going to address all that, it is going to be nice, you are going to be able to find me, I am going to create a brand, is that literally what you did or is this you now post-rationalising how it all went about?
David Abrahamovitch
The latter, for sure.
Elliot Moss
Okay.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, it’s post-rationalising. I mean, we’d barely had a conversation, a coherent conversation about what it was going to be, I can’t, I can’t tell you like the original plans were like hand drawn by Biro on a circle, on a piece of paper, it was like yeah look we’ll put the counter here, we’ll put the coffee machine there, yeah we’ll get some cool light fittings, let’s make sure the music is good, like let’s put a cool neon sign up, okay shall we do some food, yeah we should find a supplier, I mean it was really like there was no business plan, there was no major planning session that ever happened, you know I’m not sure we ever sat down around a table and had a discussion more than about 5 minutes long about anything, we just kind of did it, which sounds, you know looking back it, it terrifies me, the degree to which we didn’t even pause for breath to consider anything, it was just okay day by day what do we need to do to move forward.
Elliot Moss
But once it got to a certain point, at what point was that, hold on a minute, we’ve got something here and at what point did people then start to get interested in investing in you and all the stuff that’s then happened subsequently because there must have been a moment before, before the formality and after the formality? Do you remember when it happened and you go just a second, there’s something a bit bigger here?
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, I do, it was, you know firstly you know you talked about the £500 that my mum went and got from, from the bank and we put in the till and we didn’t put any further capital in at all beyond that point, which is kind of astonishing, you know, now when we open a store, we’re opening a big store in Manchester in about six weeks, you know we budget for that site to, to lose money for a couple of months and do lots of giveaways and over-staffing and discounts and all this other stuff and, and you know that so, it was kind of amazing from day one that people just came and transacted with us and enjoyed the product every day. The real tipping point, if there, you know the earliest tipping point I think was when we added cocktails at night and again, this was something that no one had really done with any great success. To us, it was just like well we’re, we’re full at 5pm and then we kick everyone out, this is nuts like, maybe we could persuade them to stay for a drink so, oh espresso martinis, I bet they taste good coming out of our espresso machine because we’re making amazing coffee, so I bet then turn into a great espresso martini and again, look, I think we caught a little bit of the espresso martini wave that started back then so, at that point it was like hold on, okay the numbers of this thing are actually quite interesting and you know you talk to people and you realise you are sweating the asset, you know, much harder by trading all day and trading all night, one set of overheads, two lots of revenue coming through and that was when my interest in the business kind of went to another level at that point, I mean I was super invested mentally, I was very interested but I, that was the point at which I started to think okay this could be something and then I started talking to people about potentially raising some money to roll it out and going fulltime because I was part-time for the first two years.
Elliot Moss
We’re going to go forward and then we’ll go back, you’re now an investor in other businesses, one of which is Dash and one of the founders on Jack, you know Alex is another one.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, Alex.
Elliot Moss
Thinking about your view of investing in other businesses, what is it that the investors that came into your business saw in you?
David Abrahamovitch
I think particularly with early stage businesses, there is a big emphasis on the founder the earlier the stage, I think you know by definition, you know. So I think they saw someone that had had some interesting experience in terms of the journey they’d been on with, with the VC backed business and I guess you know some of my early investors came via people that were connected to that or had, you know there was some overlap with that so I think that gave a bit of comfort and validation that do you know what like I’d, I’d received a very large amount of VC funds from someone else and even though the business hadn’t worked out perfectly, we’d done the right things and we’d tried and we had a little bit of a reputation or I had a little bit of a reputation at that point.
Elliot Moss
This was InterResolve, is that what it’s called?
David Abrahamovitch
Correct, yeah.
Elliot Moss
And again that I mean just as a quick sidebar, pretty amazing at that age to have been part of something which took on so much money.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, no, it was, I mean…
Elliot Moss
Proper learning, that’s a proper almost a degree in what to do.
David Abrahamovitch
It was, yeah, yeah, the few years of doing that was like an, like an MBA every day, I learned a huge amount from that and I was, I was really lucky to be brought into that by my best friend from school whose dad had invested in the business and he went to work for them and then I went to work for them and then we became a team of four and all of a sudden I was pitching to Europe’s leading VC around a massive boardroom table to a guy who’s actually now sat on my board as part of, and has invested heavily in Grind. So these things are all interlinked.
Elliot Moss
Well I was going to say, that’s right, you’ve got on the one side you’ve got David who’s like I don’t really mind what people think of my opinions and the other one which is that, to use the phrase, the lived experience of actually being in a heavily backed business with huge amounts of constraints and kind of structure and formal, formal procedures, I mean you’ve now double tracked the, the loose, crazy David and the really serious, structured David and in a way you’ve managed to combine the two.
David Abrahamovitch
That’s the idea.
Elliot Moss
That’s the idea.
David Abrahamovitch
Got to keep some of the, some of the entrepreneurial spirit going otherwise you know otherwise the finance team end up running the business.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, which you don’t want.
David Abrahamovitch
Which we, and we can’t have that, I love my finance team, but we can’t, we can’t have that.
Elliot Moss
Of course, we all love our finance teams but we don’t want them, don’t want them running stuff. But in terms of the, so the investors backed you obviously and by definition therefore you back investors, what is it that you’re looking for? If there are a couple of things, a couple of characteristics from an investor’s point of view about an entrepreneur, give me those, just two, for you.
David Abrahamovitch
I think it’s like trying to just grasp have they got what it takes to just figure it out and keep this thing alive because you have to, you know I think if I’ve done anything with Grind, it’s probably that I’ve kind of willed the thing into existence and managed to, managed to bolt together the right people and the right stuff and the right property and the right expertise into something which now lives and breathes and carries on. So I think you’re trying to, you’re trying to sum up in a one hour meeting, do I think they’re just going to figure it out and duck and dive and weave and change direction as required to, because it’s really hard, particularly the early stage you know and I’m personally, you know what’s the product and are they demonstrating in some form that they’ve got product market fit, whatever that means for their particular business, you know do people like the product or the service and have we got what proof points can we see today that suggest the demand for this product or service might be much bigger than it is today?
Elliot Moss
Final chat coming up with David in just a few minutes and we’ve got some music from Bill Laurance, that’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.
David Abrahamovitch is my Business Shaper just for a few more minutes. You started off talking to me about the various iterations of the business, then you’ve also, we’ve also just touched on your time in InterResolve, that business as well. And then I looked at the Covid stuff, where you go hold on a minute, everyone’s at home, okay, I know what I’m going to do, I’m going to move over there. You’ve already said you don’t do strategy in the conventional sense so, where is this comfort with change from?
David Abrahamovitch
Do you know what, that was a moment where we actually did make a really conscious, strategic decision.
Elliot Moss
Oh okay.
David Abrahamovitch
In 2019, having just done our, our third fundraise on Crowdcube, which was three and a half million, I think.
Elliot Moss
Luke Lang was on the show actually many years ago when he was at the, he was a Foothills…
David Abrahamovitch
Was he? Oh yeah, I remember.
Elliot Moss
That’s right and he was sort of a co-founder I think as well or something, the Foothills of crowdfunding.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, so Luke was around when we did, so we did three rounds of crowdfunding with them and you know, we’ve had tens of millions in funding since then but at the time that felt huge, this round, and it was like okay we could use this money to do two more cafes, you know the large format ones with restaurants or two or three more, see how it goes, or we could or we could kind of ringfence some of this money and make a, make a bet that people want Grind in their homes and you know, I arrived at the conclusion that the best way to do that would be compostable coffee pods and so, so we made the decision and invested about a million pounds into that in the summer of ‘19 or at least made the decision to invest it over the next six to nine months on moving roastery, big new bits of equipment, Shopify our website…
Elliot Moss
The lot.
David Abrahamovitch
…fulfilment, all of this stuff.
Elliot Moss
Direct to consumer.
David Abrahamovitch
Direct to consumer.
Elliot Moss
But with no sight obviously of the pandemic.
David Abrahamovitch
No, none at all. No, none at all and look, I’m always at pains to say that I think that was a good decision but luck played a gigantic part in that becoming a good decision and obviously, we’re incredibly lucky that a lot of stuff arrived just before the pandemic hit, we had a few containers slip through the net just before it all got locked down and that meant the direct to consumer side of the business exploded, it’s now the single biggest part of the business, it’s bigger than the high street business combined and it got there pretty quickly.
Elliot Moss
Available on Ocado, only because I’m not saying this as an advert but because I’ve just bought some.
David Abrahamovitch
Yeah, we’re in Sainsbury’s, Waitrose, Tesco, Ocado, we’re in all of the major grocers now, which is, which is the next phase of the business actually. But that was, you know that was a strategic decision but it was, it was a big bet but I think you have to be prepared to make those big bets in the right, in the right way.
Elliot Moss
But again you’re comfortable with that, the change point being actually do you, are you a bit of a change junky, I guess is another way of my asking this question?
David Abrahamovitch
I think you have to catch yourself on the tendencies to do that, you know, you can’t be too focused on the newness all the time and the next thing, the next thing, at some point you have to actually build out the channels so, that is a challenge I think, you know shiny object syndrome can be, can be a real problem as you’re trying to scale a business, particularly as it gets bigger and bigger but you know that was a level of change which felt like the right thing to do because of we had a lot of proof that people loved the brand and loved the way that we approach stuff so, it felt like it would make sense to put coffee into people’s kitchens as well as have them come to our kitchens.
Elliot Moss
So, just thinking about the future before we get to your song choice and say cheery-bye for now, without falling foul of the shiny object syndrome, how will you keep this thing fresh? If I was having a conversation with you in five years, what would you be looking back and going well two or three things we looked at were… boom.
David Abrahamovitch
So our mission is to make craft coffee accessible, so we want everyone drinking the best coffee they can, in whatever format that might be and there’s lots of different formats and lots of different ways we drink coffee because we think basically, the more that that happens, the more good happens so, people get a better experience and by working with businesses like us, we’re a B Corp, we have our own charity, you know good stuff is happening through the entire chain right back to the guys and girls farming it in Brazil and Colombia and Guatemala and everywhere else so, it’s about innovating continuously but in the right way, you know, because it doesn’t stand still, machines at home are getting better and better, the quality of coffee is getting better and better, how we drink it, you know, iced coffee is a huge thing, ready to drink cans, our ready to drink cans are available everywhere now and they are really, you know, moving forward, that wasn’t a thing five years ago so, it’s about staying fresh by just keeping innovation going but focussed on a central mission of you know changing the way we drink coffee for the better.
Elliot Moss
Good luck doing that.
David Abrahamovitch
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
You seem to be doing…
David Abrahamovitch
It’s a small task.
Elliot Moss
It’s a small task but you’ve got some time, you’ve still…
David Abrahamovitch
Keeps me busy.
Elliot Moss
Yes, but you’re still young, I think you’ve got a following behind you. It’s been great talking to you, David, thank you, thank you for your time. Just before I let you disappear, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
David Abrahamovitch
So, it’s Al Green, Tired of Being Alone and I’ve chosen it because you know I was, you know we’ve talked about my dad a lot today and I grew up listening to you know, to stuff like this, lots of Motown and this is, when the trumpets come in ten or twenty seconds into this song, it’s still like a gut punch, in a kind of a nice way and also a not nice way and I, you know he had this, this classic Corvette, which I have now as well and it just instantly takes me back to like the roof down in London somewhere, listening to that song, it takes me back to that time. Yeah, there we go.
Elliot Moss
Al Green there with Tired of Being Alone, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, David Abrahamovitch. He talked about building something, that is what he has enjoyed doing and he continues to do. “I’ll be the arbiter of which rules to follow”, pretty clear what he thinks about rules. “In the early days, you’ve got to have a view” and connected to that, that point about he built Grind based on what he wanted, not on what people told him that they wanted, really important to have that focus yourself. And finally, the maturity to say, “I care loads about what a tiny amount of people think”, that is what happens as you get olde and that’s exactly what has informed David’s ability to continue to grow this business. Great stuff. That’s it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.