Read the full transcript
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Good morning Dave, Dave Ewing, BAE Systems I’m delighted to have you here on the next instalment of our Future of Defence videos series. Dave you’re Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems Plc where I used to be and former lawyer which is great. I’ll let you say a little bit about yourself and then we’ll dive into the conversation.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Excellent, so yeah, Dave Ewing, I basically run what we call BAE Systems Launchpad which is our brand new incubator for engaging with the tech SME ecosystem in defence and dual-use tech. Like you say, a rehabilitated lawyer, now in a new role and really enjoying it.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Great, great. So you went from engineer to lawyer to tech accelerant.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, I feel like I’ve had like 10 careers within BAE.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
So I joined as an engineer. I did engineering at university.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Joined as an engineer, worked on F-35, worked on submarines program. Probably a terrible engineer right, okay.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah, if anyone’s flying about in a… the F-35 you built,
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Don’t get in that. I recognised my strengths and my weaknesses, and a job came up internally to retrain as a patent attorney.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Which is, so you need a technical background.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm hmm.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
You don’t have to do a law degree. And so I got that job, trained up, qualified as a patent attorney. Absolutely loved that job, working with you know, engineers, technologists on cutting-edge tech across all of the different businesses, all different you know, aircrafts, submarines, ships. And then moved into this role which is really a sort of evolution of that, moving into tech licensing, but increasingly into the VC ecosystem. How do we engage as a prime with that market, and really trying to position ourselves as a company that can actually enable all this tech to make it through to the frontline.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah. So you’re perfectly placed right? Got the end to end.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah. Well, yeah, I hope so yeah.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Great. Okay, well that’s a really nice opportunity to get into the conversation. So today I think what we’d like to talk about is the role that primes, and BAE in particular, have in the tech and innovation ecosystem.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Mm.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
And just to frame that conversation slightly, I spend an awful lot of time in rooms with startup scale-ups and everyone in between talking about how to access the market and go-to-market strategies, and how to sell effectively to the customer. And primes always come up, and they always come up in, or often come up in a negative light, right? Oh it’s tricky to work with the primes. Don’t go there they’ll take your IP etc. And I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. I think that’s unfair a lot of the time. It can be tricky for primes to interact with smaller companies. But could you just describe how it works within BAE Systems and tell us maybe how BAE Systems is positioned now to work with younger, smaller companies, far smaller companies, that are developing technology at a king of rapid pace?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s sometimes this unhelpful sort of myth that it’s primes or SMEs, right? The two can’t exist together. But the defense industry’s always been about collaboration. So we have primes who were known for long, complex programs, so your sort of fighter jets, aircraft carriers, submarines, etc. And then what you’ve got is this increasing crop of really innovative, fast moving startups, especially in the last sort of four or five years where they can develop capability at breakneck speed. And so I don’t see it as a one or the other. I see it as it’s the primes’ jobs to help facilitate that ecosystem and help pull through that capability to the customer. And we all have different challenges. Big organisations have their challenges. Startups in defense, you look at the sort of time to market and getting the timing right, you can have fantastic technology, but if the contract isn’t ready for the customer yet.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Then you can run out of runway really, really quite quickly.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
And so I see it as the primes’ position to help build a long-term ecosystem where actually that capability can be sustained, can be pulled through into larger framework contracts with different customers, be it MOD or abroad. And actually, we can all coexist in the same market. I think we’re starting to see that now with a number of programs. And at BAE, we’ve started to really develop this way of doing business where we will take product to market. BAE might be the prime, but actually what you see is a whole load of capability from really innovative startups from small SMEs through to a bit larger SMEs and medium-sized companies that can stand the test of time. So it’s not just a flash in the pan.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah. Got you. Okay. Well, that’s great. And so if I’m a CEO, co-founder, what have you, of a pre-Series A company with an amazing piece of technology that isn’t quite at capability yet, how do I engage? What do I do? I don’t know BAE, big, monolithic company. Where do I go?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Right. That’s a really good question, because I hear this time and time again.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
People try one bit of the company, they might not get the right traction and they think, well the company’s not interested. It doesn’t quite work with that in primes. We’re a collection of lots of companies which do all sorts of things. So we have a company that builds ships, we have a company that builds submarines, a company that builds fighter jets. What I say to SMEs is you need to find the switchboard, right? And so my team in the chief technology officer’s organisation is the switchboard. Our job is to basically field all these incoming enquiries and connect you to the right bits of the organisation. All primes will be the same. It tends to be at sort of head office level within the primes. You need to find that node and then engage with it. And don’t give up, is what I’d say.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Because if you get told no the first time, chances are these companies are so large, you will find the right home somewhere within the organisation.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah. And so that brings us on maybe to Launchpad slightly. So are there now established routes within the CTO’s office or within Launchpad itself to sort of route potential partners and companies that you want to work with? How does that work?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, absolutely. So if you’re an existing company, absolutely come to us at Launchpad. We are basically the connecting nodes to get you to the right bit in the organisation. So we see that time and time again, where it doesn’t matter where you are geographically, so not just the UK. It could be worldwide. Come tell us about your capability, tell us what you want from us. So be really clear what the ask is. If you don’t know what the ask is, that’s fine, but just tell us that. And then our job is to match you up with the bit of our business that is most appropriate. And it might be that the answer is, ‘sorry, thanks, not today’. But equally, there are some really interesting companies that have come forward and we’re saying, ‘well, actually, your capability fits really neatly into this wider tech stack’.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm hmm.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
‘And actually, we want to bring you on and make you part of the supply chain for this much larger opportunity’. And that goes back to the point of, it gives these smaller companies the sort of long-term visibility of contracts and income, which can enable them to stand the test of time.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm hmm. Yeah, And in terms of, well actually, before I dive into that, so just in terms of domain, so they come to you, whether it’s land, sea, air.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Everything, everything. And what I’d say is, don’t just, I guess, pigeonhole us into thinking that we do big, large platforms. We do all sorts of tech from, like I say, the big platforms, but also some really interesting cyber capabilities, electronic warfare capabilities. And increasingly, you start to see some of the smaller platforms that we’ve seen in use in different theatres. So, small drones, counter UAS technologies, subsea, USVs and UUVs. Those are all within our wheelhouse. And then the technologies that connect those are super important. So communication technologies, autonomy technologies and navigation technologies, quantum timing etc.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
These are all technologies that we are interested in at BAE.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Launchpad then, back to Launchpad. So alongside becoming the conduit, or the switchboard, as you very nicely put it, into the world of BAE, and it is a world, what else are you doing? So you started to make sort of, obviously you’ve been investing in some startups for a little while. So you’ve done deals with the likes of Oxford Dynamics and others.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, yeah.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
And we know they work really well, which is great, but what else are you doing and what’s the plan for Launchpad going forwards?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Launchpad is basically our technology incubator.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
For dealing with the venture capital world, startups, SMEs in the defense and dual-use space. And we’re doing a few activities within Launchpad. So one of the activities is taking tech that we’ve got within our portfolio, spinning it out into adjacent markets. So we just announced our first company called Rho-C.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm-hmm.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Takes this power and data technology we developed for nuclear submarines and actually taking that into oil and gas, where you can totally remove the need to drill holes through infrastructure, and you can get power and data straight through a metal barrier, which is pretty cool
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Wow.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Which is pretty cool.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
So BAE’s now dual-use?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, we’re now dual-use. Absolutely. And we have a pipeline of these startups that will be coming through, spin-outs from the business. But also we are looking at venture building. So taking technology, which is generally in academia or research labs, incorporating that into a venture, getting a solid management team in place, and then getting that backed by venture capital. So we can supercharge capability and move it forward at pace, while still having that route to market through BAE…
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yep.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
…into the big customers. So it’s a new way of doing R&D I guess, but the time is now, because you look at the capital available now in defense, in dual-use technologies, and really what all these people are crying out for in the ecosystem is, is route to market.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
How do we get our tech to the customer, to the front line? And that might be direct with government, but it could also be via the primes, and that’s where I see Launchpad as really facilitating that joining up of the ecosystem.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah. What’s the general position, and obviously it can be contract specific, it would depend on the flow downs, or your good10.28 things, but generally speaking, is BAE, and do you think other firms are acquisitive when it comes to IP, or is it not about obtaining and owning IP? Because obviously, when you’ve got the venture backed or privately financed businesses, that’s the kernel of value that they’re investing in.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like you say, there’s always going to be case by case…
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
…scenarios where there’s flow downs involved and whatnot. But look, I think we take, we’ve come from an equitable position of making sure that each party retains ownership of at least a background IP.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
And for startups and SMEs, really having a clear understanding of what your IP is.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Mm-hmm.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
So you might have some patent filings, great, but it might be trade secrets, and having at least a good understanding of where your IP comes from makes it so much easier when it comes to those negotiations because you understand exactly what is yours and exactly what’s going to be created during the course of the contract.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
So I think it’s never going to be a cookie cutter approach to…
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Sure.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
…I wish it was.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
It would make my life so much easier. To dealing with IP between parties. But look, we always look for an equitable solution that makes sure that the companies are still absolutely viable after going into a contract, because I totally understand the IP, the technology, is really the value of what the company’s built on.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
And we’re not in the business of taking that away from companies.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah. That’s the line I wanted to hear.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah. That’s the one.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Good. Excellent. So we’ve got a few minutes left. What’s the bit plan, you know, what’s the roll-up plan, the big vision for Launchpad and sort of BAE’s kind of foray into corporate venturing?
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, absolutely. I mean BAE Systems Launchpad is really about turbo charging these technologies to bring them forward at a much faster pace to the frontline. So we’re doing that through spinning out our existing technologies…
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
…into adjacencies. That creates jobs in the UK, makes every pound spent in defense actually go further for UK, create economic growth. But also this venturing piece where we are actually incubating and incorporating companies around really nascent technology that we can supercharge with our connections to private capital…
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
…and drive forward. So these are certainly not companies that we’re looking to bring wholly within BAE. We like to keep them as a startup with a really driven management team that can take that technology forward
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Yeah.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
And then use BAE as the route to market to get the technology into defence.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
And what I would say is that without wishing to sound too sort of trite and jingoistic about it, that goes way beyond sort of company advantage, right. And it goes back to what we were seeing in Ukraine and across the world at the minute, is that we need a strong, secure sort of defense ecosystem so that we can continue to do what we do day-to-day…
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Absolutely.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
…unimpeded, right? And it really matters. So the ecosystem piece is huge.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Yeah, it is. It’s not just one player in this industry. The defense industry’s always been about collaboration of various big companies. And now what we’re seeing is increasingly all these innovative start-up companies coming into the fold, and it’s just about making that ecosystem work for them as well as for the primes.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
Brilliant. Well, thank you very much.
Dave Ewing, Head of Technology Commercialisation at BAE Systems
Thanks for having me.
Toby McCrindle, Partner, Mishcon
That’s fascinating. Yeah, delighted to have you.