Georgina Hathway, Associate
So welcome everyone to this Mishcon Academy session, which is part of our online series of events, videos, and podcasts looking at the biggest issues faced by society today. So just to introduce myself, I'm Georgina Hathaway. I'm an associate in the innovation team at Mishcon, um, and I'll be hosting today. Um. so before I introduce Ben, there are a couple of housekeeping points just to make everyone aware of. So if you, if you're online, you've joined this session with your mic off and without video. If you do have a question, just use the Q&A function and those in the room will pick it up on the iPad. If you have any technical issues during the event, just let us know on the chat and one of the team will help you. So if you're in the room, please just raise your hand if you have a question at the end. So let's begin. Our guest today is a genuine pioneer in the world of non-alcoholic spirits. He is the founder of Seedlip and is now building Sylva, which is an aged non-alcoholic spirit made from trees - Ben will tell you more about that. Seedlip is stocked in some of the finest bars and restaurants in the country and the world. It's more than 30 countries, I believe?
Ben Branson
35.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
35? Wow.
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, so those in the room, you might be lucky enough to try some, we've got some bottles at the back, so help yourselves. But the story that interests me even more than Seedlip is the one that was running in the background, um, and that is Ben's experience with being diagnosed with autism at 39 and with ADHD shortly after. So Ben has dedicated himself to reshaping how the world understands neurodivergence through The Hidden 20%, which is his charity and a Gold Award winning podcast built on the truth that at least 1 in 5 of us thinks differently. So please welcome Ben Branson.
Ben Branson
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So let's start. Um, I just wanted to share before we actually get into the questions. So my mum hasn't drank alcohol since she was 21, just because of her medication and disability and she'd always watch me order these beautiful cocktails with the fancy glasses and the garnish, and she'd feel left out with her little J2O on the side lines. Um , and now she gets to order a Seedlip, which always looks beautiful and tastes incredible. So I just want to say thank you.
Ben Branson
No, thank you. That's great to hear.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So why don't you tell us about the reasons that you created Seedlip and now Sylva?
Ben Branson
Yeah, so wind back probably to 2013, and I was living in this little Hansel and Gretel kind of cottage in the woods, uh, in Marlow, Buckinghamshire, quite happy. Had my dogs, I'd learned how to do taxidermy, collecting lots of books, growing lots of herbs and veg in the garden. And I remember walking into Sainsbury's and having a look at the fresh herb section, and we've all been there there's pot plants of thyme and basil that dies a couple of days later that you need for your pasta dish. And I was really struck by how few there were and I'm from a farming family, so I'd grown up not knowing about botanicals and herbs and spices. I'd learnt about turnips and potatoes and barley, but I was like, we must, there must be more than this. There must, we must have lost and forgotten so many different herbs and spices. And so gone to Wikipedia and started looking at, I guess, 500 years of botanical history and all these incredible ingredients that we'd sort of gone out of fashion. That then led me to buying some seeds, that then led me to planting, and that led me down this rabbit warren of alchemists and apothecaries and herbal remedies from the 17th century. And so Seedlip was not a story where I spotted a gap, I wanted to create a drink, um, this was a very sort of natural, organic process of curiosity. In these apothecaries in the 17th century, they were using distillation as a way of making medicine. And the medicine that they were making was both alcoholic and non-alcoholic using herbs and spices. And I came across, somebody scanned in a copy of a book called ‘The Art of Distillation’, 1651, it's the original copy. It's in the British Library, I've been to see it. I have a 1664 copy of this book. I should have brought it, um, but it mentions 200 ingredients, all these distillation techniques. I was just like, I'm just going to have a go. And so you can go on the internet, you can buy, you can probably buy one on Amazon these days, a small copper still. And I cannot tell you how magical the process was of taking just mint from my garden and making a liquid that smells and tastes like that plant. This was 2013, no one was talking about non-alcoholic drinks. Um , you could get Beck's Blue, Shloer, J2O. In the US, you could get a can of O'Doul's, which was a non-alcoholic beer. That was it.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And so I just became hooked on kind of understanding this process of what else can I distil. And then probably 6 months later, I was driving into London not drinking alcohol, went out for dinner, lovely restaurant in King's Cross, gorgeous menu, gorgeous wine list, food looked great, cocktails sounded great, everyone else was drinking alcohol, and I don't know why, but I did ask, have you got anything that's non-alcoholic? And they said, sure, we can bring you something. And over came the tray, lovely someone had ordered an Old Fashioned, someone had ordered a nice glass of red, and there was my pink, fruity, sweet, disgusting, horrific, childish mocktail.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
I just felt like an idiot. And it wasn't a lightning bolt moment where I suddenly thought, oh my God, I know what the world needs, I know what I need to do. But I was just struck by, (a) how much of an idiot I felt, (b) how it didn't fit the occasion, (c) how this was a really nice place and this was a really rubbish option that didn't go with the food and I didn't want to finish and I didn't want another one. And so I left that night and the dots then started to join of maybe what I was doing at home is interesting, maybe working with my family farm could be interesting on ingredients and maybe there's something in this of some sort of need, and I'm not the only one kind of feeling like they're being short changed. And so then it was an idea that I was doing on the side. I wanted to take it to a farmer's market. I wanted to do five different products in two different sizes and I ended up 2 years later launching one product in one size in Selfridges. And that was meant to be 1,000 bottles lasting 6 months; they sold out in 3 weeks. I was invited to Buckingham Palace. We got all this press. We heard from 100 countries in the first 3 months.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Wow.
Ben Branson
I hated it. It was not how my plan said it was meant to go. And yeah, suddenly I had to sort of change tact and made another 1,000 bottles. They sold out in 3 weeks. Made another one, and people were queuing outside Selfridges at 9 o'clock in the morning to get their hands on bottles, which was ridiculous. And not everybody was appreciative of this concept, you know, I had made a lot of people angry and a lot of people kind of going, ‘Why? What's the point? This will never sell a bottle’. But it kicked off a kind of really crazy 3½ year journey to 30 countries and offices in LA and Sydney, uh, building a big team, minority investment from Diageo, 7,500 of the world's best bars, restaurants, and hotels, uh, a lot of time on planes um.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I imagine.
Ben Branson
Yeah, it was, it was incredible. Difficult, stressful, but that was the first, we were the first non-alcoholic spirit, we were the first really non-alcoholic new brand, and you've now got 1,000 brands, $25 billion category in double digit growth.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Yeah, it's the way we drink has changed.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Did you ever think you would be credited with a revolution in drinks?
Ben Branson
No, because that, that I sort of can, I can flit between, and certainly early days with Seedlip, you know, I had these lofty deluded ideas of I want to change the way the world drinks, and I managed to find an amazing team of people who believed that and wanted to come on that journey. But then I also thought it was all going to crumble and that it was too difficult and questioning why I was even bothering. And so yeah, it's great, but it's still, you know, 10 years old and just getting started.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And so there's a hell of a long way to go. But yeah, it's, it's, I'm very proud of what we did, and I'm proud that we I guess, set a kind of new category and a movement alight that gives people choice.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah, you should be, and it's not just Seedlip.
Ben Branson
No, so I'm like, for some reason, a real sucker for punishment because I love, yeah, I love being at the beginning and the other two projects that we're working on, Sylva, which is the aged non-alcoholic spirit. That project actually started before Seedlip. So before Seedlip, I was agency side consulting on brands and innovation, and I got involved in this project in America with this amazing, amazing man called Ty Tyler, who's now dead. He was on the development team of AstroTurf and the development team of the food safe lining for aluminium cans that mean we can put drinks, etc., in them. He was an old man, he got to his 70s, and he developed a technique of maturing bourbon to a 12 year old age in 3 weeks using UV and ultrasound. And I got involved to help him kind of create brands and some sort of product innovation strategy. And I like taking things apart, and I like understanding how things work, and was kind of very taken with this idea of breaking down the status quo of whiskey has to be made with barrels, and whiskey has to be made with barrels made of one tree species, and whiskey has to age for a long time. And so started, I bought a jewellery cleaner, and if anybody listening has got a jewellery cleaner, you might know that it uses ultrasound to clean jewellery.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Because what the ultrasound's doing is it's getting in and out into rings and watches, and it is creating these little mini explosions that force out the dirt. I found that you can do that and force out the flavour of wood.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Wow.
Ben Branson
And so, yeah, that all happened sort of pre-Seedlip, and I guess I've been waiting for the right moment to then indulge my absolute obsession with trees and with science and process. And so invented this maturation process that doesn't use barrels, that celebrates the diversity of flavour in tree species. So I have tasted over 250 different tree species, of the 73,000 that there are.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
That's incredible.
Ben Branson
And we've made these dark non-alcoholic liquids that you can sip and sit down with and slow down with that are made from trees. And we do that ourselves at our maturation lab in North Essex and we started, yeah, we launched 12 months ago. It's on Ocado, it's in Selfridges, it's in all these fancy places, um, and yeah, it's very, very exciting because it's a kind of new dimension to what non-alcoholic drinks can be.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah, and I'm really sad that you haven't brought any for us to try.
Ben Branson
I know, and that is like, I'm a bad business person for not bringing the bottles of liquids that I've made.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
But we'll have to go and get one from a pub after this.
Ben Branson
Yes.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So how would you describe, I mean, I asked you a little bit, we were chatting before, but what does it actually taste like? What does Sylva taste like?
Ben Branson
Yeah, so if you start from the premise that trees are full of flavour, and I can tell you that some trees taste like your granny's purse in an antique shop, and some trees, cherry, for example, taste like Bakewell tart and stewed cherries. Or, uh, Red Oak tastes like butter and freshly baked bread, like this amazing spectrum of flavour. Sylva Orchard, which is our latest Sylva release, celebrates fruit wood and so you've got apple wood, plum wood, and cherry wood, malted barley. And so it is fruit forward, you've got a gentle wisp of smoke, it's full-bodied, um, there's great mouth feel, there's warmth on the chest and behind your eyes. There's no chilli in there to kind of make your mouth burn, but it's full of flavour um, and, and really does celebrate some of those stewed fruit kind of oaky vanilla tones that you would get from a whisky. We don't want to replicate whisky, um, but we want something that sits in that same occasion that, you know, you can hold in a nice glass and sit down with.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
It feels like kind of untapped world of flavour, doesn't it? Like, people don't know about this.
Ben Branson
They don't, and there are half a billion barrels in the world, and in order to make, and 90% of those barrels are from one tree species, which is American white oak. You've started me talking on trees now, Georgina, you're not…
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Sorry, we're not even to question 3, so.
Ben Branson
Half a billion barrels, 90% of them made with one tree species. In order to make a barrel, we cut down a 100 year old oak tree, and that 100 year old oak tree will make 2 barrels.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Really, is that it?
Ben Branson
That's it. So we've cut down a billion oak trees, basically to make our barrels. Those barrels will actually only hold maybe 3,000-4,000 bottles worth of liquid in their lifetime, and we are using millimetres of that wood in contact with liquid that drives 70% of the flavour of a brown spirit, right? So we are…
Georgina Hathway, Associate
It's so wasteful.
Ben Branson
It's so wasteful in many ways, and I guess I, I massively love kind of breaking things down and building them back up and asking those questions of why, you know, why does it have to be this way? And it has to be this way for lots of whisky brands because they're the rules.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And we don't have those same rules, and so we can celebrate, when you don't have to make a barrel, suddenly the opportunity for which tree species you can work with magnifies enormously. And I know Japanese whiskey makers who would love to work with red oak, but it's too porous, it's too porous to be made into a barrel.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Right.
Ben Branson
And we have a 4 acre forest where our lab is, we have lots of red oak there. It's native to America but came over here about 300 years ago. There are 600 species of oak, right? And people don't know this.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
No.
Ben Branson
You know, cork is an oak species.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Is it?
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Wow.
Ben Branson
And so there's lots, yeah, I mean, we are scratching the surface on what trees taste like, and there's so much that we need to understand and we need to learn, and we can't learn that because the knowledge is already out there. And so you're, we're partly R&D, research and development. I mean, there's PhDs in this kind of stuff, absolutely. And then we're part, you know, business and wanting to scale a process. So yeah, it's, I love it, it's fascinating.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
It’s fascinating.
Ben Branson
Um, trees are amazing, we need to hug them and, and drink them.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Absolutely. Well, yeah, that's enlightening. I had no idea. But, um, yeah, who knew? I can't wait to see what you do with trees.
Ben Branson
Yeah, there's, there’s…
Georgina Hathway, Associate
And I can't wait to taste many of them.
Ben Branson
Yeah, there's gold. You'll never look at a tree in the same way. I mean, I literally am driving down the road kind of (a) identifying trees, and then you're kind of, I'm spotting and thinking about what they might taste like.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Okay, that doesn't feel a natural segue to talk about your history, personal history.
Ben Branson
Sure.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, so I've mentioned that you received quite late diagnoses of ADHD and autism. Um, so what was life like before you had the language?
Ben Branson
Yeah, so let's sort of establish some, some facts. Um, the belief at the moment is that 1 in 5 people are neurodivergent. The, the kind of news flash on that is that that number has actually never been tested, and we're testing it and already, by our estimations, we get to 1 in 3 quite quickly. So we've under counted.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Um, that's one thing to say. The second thing is that neurodivergent people over index on all of the most dreadful things that can happen to a person. All the rates on suicide, addiction, trauma, homelessness, unemployment, mental health, prison, exclusion, bullying, divorce; we win and that is not okay. And unfortunately, I find myself in all of those statistics, and that's not okay. And so it's easy to jump to the it's Neurodiversity Celebration Week, uh, we've got skills, we can contribute, um, you know, so many neurodivergent people have contributed. Yeah, I've contributed so much. But we've skipped over the fact that we've undercounted.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
We've missed millions of people.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And there's a lot of downstream outcomes that come from not recognising and supporting this. And so, you know, I saw my first psychiatrist when I was 8, and, you know, I went through everything from, uh, trouble at school, getting into hard drugs, rehab, I've been sectioned, um, yeah, really not great and I've seen lots of professionals and no one ever talked about autism or ADHD.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
You couldn't even be diagnosed with autism and ADHD until 2013.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
That's unbelievable.
Ben Branson
You were not allowed to be both um, and this is the whole, you know, the whole, whether it's dyslexia or dyscalculia or Tourette's or dyspraxia, um, yeah, the outcomes and the prospects and the stories that we hear, um are stories of sometimes really unnecessary struggle.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And this is costing the UK government north of £50 billion a year. Like ADHD alone not being supported is £17 billion a year. Um, so I had all of the misconceptions and all of the stigma in my head leading up to, I'd never heard the word neurodiversity before.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And I'd never associated myself anywhere near those things. And it took a guy in the drinks industry who I know, he was diagnosed ADHD and autistic. He spoke kind of publicly within the drinks industry about that. And I like this guy, I like talking to him, I got on with him. And thought that was great that he'd done that, but maybe that sowed a seed. And then maybe 6 months later, um, I was listening to a founder on a podcast, I related to a lot of what he was saying. He'd got an autism diagnosis and I found myself doing the thing that I know lots of people have done, which is Googling and, you know, I did some online tests. I then thought, nah, you know, no, I'm not, I can't be, you know, autistic people just like trains or Rain Man or, I can't be. And my wife was 8 months pregnant with our third daughter at this point. And I decided to go for an assessment.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
I didn't tell anyone. And I wasn't doing it because I was in crisis, I was doing it out of curiosity. And went through this 12 week process, um, and Dr Renato Fiallo, who has now joined us as our clinical psychologist for The Hidden 20%, um, said to me at the end of it, you know, ‘congratulations, Ben, you're autistic’. And I really believed her and it really did answer, it gave me one word basically that answered so many questions that I'd had growing up, how I work, what I'm like, um, good and bad.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
That it was incredibly empowering. It kind of just felt like it didn't matter what the word was. It was the, oh my God, that's why and therefore then I can go and look into it and I can go and kind of, which I do, research it and want to get to the bottom of it. Um, and that's where then I started to find the horrific statistics and the crisis that there is and the amazing people, uh, many of whom I've looked up to, whose brains, yeah, have contributed so much to society. And that then led me into, I just have to do something about this.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Mm, are there any moments that you had after diagnosis that you've reflected on and sort of gone, of course, like, that was, that was the autism, that was the ADHD?
Ben Branson
Yeah, I mean, it, it's explained, it has just kind of explained everything, from, I could not understand why wool makes my skin hurt. It's a tiny example, but put it in the context of school uniform, or put it in the context of, you know, we have sheep now. I mean, like, put it in the context of, like, wanting to wear natural materials.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And I just couldn't understand it, and I couldn't understand the kind of sensory side of, why do I see flavour as colour? Like, oh, because there's this thing called synaesthesia, and that means that your senses get a bit confused. I had no idea how I developed liquids. I had no idea that actually the starting point for developing a liquid in my head is the colour of it, and not the colour of the end liquid, but the colour, I can't even explain it properly.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Of how it feels.
Ben Branson
Yeah, of, of what that means from a flavour perspective. Um, or why I'm basically anxious 99% of the time, or why I'm exhausted after social occasions, or why I don't actually have a social life. Um, loads of these things that I would then judge and be like, Ah, that's not what a good modern day citizen does you should be popular and have lots of friends and have a social life. And so actually what has happened is I've been the kindest to myself I've ever been. I've leapt to less judgement for things that maybe I do think, feel that are not, quote unquote, the norm, um, and that's resulted in me feeling more myself than I've ever felt. And that's something that, yeah, I want for everyone, right? I want everyone to feel like they can be themselves. And the three words we hear from all the work we're doing with the Hidden 20% the most are, ‘I feel seen’. Um, and that's huge. Um, yeah, so that's what we kind of want to do more of.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Mm, and if that doesn't encourage people who are struggling to reach out and find the right word for them, then I don't know what will.
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So you've talked about living with contradictions, being focused and completely distracted, and that's part of what we're going to call ADHD.
Ben Branson
Sure.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, so how has that shaped you as a person and a founder?
Ben Branson
Yeah, so ADHD is the sandwich of putting autism and ADHD together. It's not a, that's not a clinical term and we don't have any other sandwiches, even though we know that there is a hell of a lot of crossover between ADHD and dyslexia, for example.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Or Tourette's and ADHD, um, but we're still kind of, yeah, catching up. And because we've over medicalised everything and everything's in silos, yeah, we're still only now kind of going, oh my God, there is this thing of ADHD and autism together. And it is push and pull and it is in conflict and, you know, being ADHD, I'm impatient, I'm impulsive, uh, I'm very action, task, and problem solving orientated. Um, and being autistic, I am incredibly methodical and incredibly logical and very strategic, and I want repetition, I want routine. I want structure. And yet ADHD wants dopamine and novelty and change.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And so wrestling and harnessing and understanding both those forces, I think it's probably going to continually be a learning kind of thing for me. But when I apply it to work, um, it can be really helpful and, you know, with the Hidden 20%, we're a fully neurodivergent team with Pollen Projects, which is our drinks business, mostly neurodivergent. Um, and that, the best things about that are just us being curious about how each other work and how our brains work. It's not about labouring the labels, um, it is about how do you create high performing teams with lots of different brains in that mix, uh, which is, I think, is a huge competitive advantage.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah. I agree and, you know, it's really interesting, the work that you've done in this space, particularly with employers and workspaces as well. And I'm wondering, why did the Hidden 20% need to exist? Was part of that rooted in how workplaces and society are built?
Ben Branson
I think it, we have this invisible crisis, we have this over index in horrific statistics, we have this proof that neurodivergence can be an amazing skill and contributor, um, and we have actually these amazing shoulders that we can stand on because we have as a society, we've done this five times before. We, we've come so far on gender. We've come so far on disability.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yep.
Ben Branson
And so we do know how to take something from being invisible, stigmatised, um, misunderstood, over-medicalised, and actually take it into being understood and recognised and visible. And that's what, you know, I was with the CEO of Campaign Against Living Miserably, Simon Gunning, um, this morning because I love him and I love what they do and I said, I want to copy what you do and he said, great., let me help you do that.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Amazing.
Ben Branson
Um, and we, as The Hidden 20%, are moving to, you know, we've just finished our first piece of research, we're about to start another piece of research, we are going to be campaigning, um, the podcast and our social content have built, you know, a 300,000 person community, and we have access to the world's leading experts and this amazing body of both lived experience and expertise, and we want to take that forward into putting our head above the parapet and uniting this movement, I guess, um, to make it impossible to ignore.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So when you were starting The Hidden 20%, did you feel you were stepping into a vacuum? Or had the conversation already started?
Ben Branson
I mean, neurodiversity as a term was kind of coined in the '90s. Um there has been, and we can see this based on our research, that really the movement and awareness aspect of this is only about 5 years old. It's really only, you can link it to COVID and TikTok, literally.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Branson
Um, you can see that in the data. Which is good and bad, um, I just think we are right at the beginning of this and there's so many myths and biases and misconceptions that we want to kind of break down and for people to, yeah, understand the horror and the hope.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah, um, and I'm hoping to pick your brain a little bit on this, um, because we know that workplaces in particular are built around neurotypical norms, um, and so what needs to change, um, and how is that causing, how is it causing harm?
Ben Branson
Yeah, so I am yet to come across an industry and someone from an industry that doesn't tell me that their industry over-indexes in neurodiversity, right? And I'm, I'm talking everything from legal, engineering, automotive, construction, music, sport, you name it.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
It's a soundbite, isn't it?
Ben Branson
Everybody just says, no, no, we've got loads of neurodiverse people in our industry. I think where the workplace is kind of concerned, um, there was a study released last week by City and Guilds. They do a neurodiversity employee, employer index report every year. This has been their fourth, um, report, and yeah, go and check it out because there's some really interesting stuff in there. To summarise some of what it says is employers think they're doing a really good job. Employees don't agree with that. And there is, you know, there's lots of training that goes on, um, there's Neurodiversity Celebration Week, there's lots of initiatives. I don't think there's a lack of want or intent. I think there's a lack of like how, um, a bit of why, and I'm not sure we as a society from an economical perspective are yet in a position to kind of go, it's better for business.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Even though I, of course, I biasedly believe that, um, I do think having a, yeah, having a diverse team is good for business and is better for projects and better for work and better for productivity. But I think we need to prove that. I think that's a way. I think the report also suggests line managers are really, really key. Top-down support, we know from the corporates that we work with, can be a huge enabler. If there's top-down, ultimately, permission and safety to disclose, to ask for help, um, that's a huge one. You look at the unemployment statistics for neurodivergent people, which are dreadful, and then you couple that with our HR processes, which could go so much, such a long way to improve and be more accessible…
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Um, for people and then we have this, you know, sort of phrase of reasonable adjustments, um, and it gets bandied around. People aren't really sure what, what that is, and neurodivergent employees aren't really sure what they can ask for and if it's not a culture of safety from a psychological perspective where people can share, and this is something that can be discussed, and there isn't a level of line managers who have enough of an understanding or curiosity about this, then it creates this situation where people don't ask for what they need.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Because the stigma is, you know, you're asking for too much, um, that might put you in a lesser standing for promotions or other opportunities. If it's seen as a weakness, that could go against you too. And so we do need to, like, for want of a better phrase, flip the script on this and change the narrative. And some of that is definitely top-down, um, and good leadership and strong leadership. Uh, that's one, that's one way. Another way is I think we've got to move away from, you know, line managers having to be clinical experts in all of these different neurotypes which is so overwhelming when you kind of hear all these different acronyms and you get told that everyone, it portrays and presents differently for everybody. Suddenly people are like, wow, I've got to become like a clinical expert in autism, Tourette's, dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia. I don't even know what dysgraphia is, you know, you've got all these, and when it's baked into being something that is medical and clinical rather than cognitive processing styles and ways of being and identity, I feel like a lot of line managers and people in positions of leadership might relax a lot more if they realise that the only thing they really need to focus on is being really, really curious about their people's brains. That's it. How do you think? How do you like to receive information? How are you at your best? And guess what? That is not a uniform Industrial Revolution conform process.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So simple.
Ben Branson
Well, yeah, I don't know, I get lots of parents in touch with us and they ask, how can I help my son, daughter? How can I help my child? They've been diagnosed with X, Y, and Z. What should I read? What do I need to listen to? Which experts should I kind of contact? And I say the same thing to all of them of like, you are the expert in your child and that is all you need to do. You have just got to dive into their world and be curious about how you can best kind of support them that they can thrive. Um, there's a brilliant equation that an amazing professor called Dr Luke Bearden, um, who's been on The Hidden 20%, he's got two episodes actually, so do check him out, but he's kind of been working in the education around autism for the last 30 years and teaches a course up at Sheffield Hallam. And he's got this equation which is autism plus environment equals outcome. And you can easily insert neurodiversity plus environment equals outcome, um, and if any of you are familiar with the social model of disability, you know, the environment is so important. And so when you put that in a workplace kind of context, building an environment in which people can be themselves and do their best work sounds so simple, but is not the norm. And that's where we get to good universal design and win-win kind of opportunities. It's not about a little quiet room. It's not about kind of special requests and individuals per se. It is about what's going to benefit everybody. And sharing the questions in an interview process ahead of time is great for everybody, you know, it's the drop kerb analogy, like it's better for everybody. Um, so yeah, unfortunately I don't have a magic wand, um, and I don't even know what I'm doing half the time, Georgina, in running a charity, so yeah, but.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
You seem to be doing okay.
Ben Branson
Well, these, these are things that we're, yeah, we're passionate about.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, so okay, the fact, that you just won gold at the British Podcast Awards for The Hidden 20%.
Ben Branson
Yeah, we did. That was a moment.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
In year one?
Ben Branson
In year one. And to win best interview and not, I said to my wife, oh look, we've been nominated for this, I do not want to go to that horrific awards evening, where it's going to be sensory overload and lots of people and I have to be smart and all the rest of it. And she was like, it'd be rude if you don't go, you've got to go, I'll come with you. And so we went, we went as a team and we were up against like Grace Dent's podcast and all these amazing podcasts. And yeah, it was a, it was a big moment, um, it was a lovely moment actually.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Good. Um, so while we're on the podcast and the charity, what's next? Because we've spoken a little bit about your study.
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
But I want to hear more about that.
Ben Branson
Yeah, so we are, um, we've been very focused for 2 years on, you know, we've got over 200 hours of interviews and we've got this amazing 300,000 person vocal, strong, passionate community, and we've got this network of celebrities, experts, um, people who run charity, like a really amazing group of supporters who've graciously given us their time. And I've got to a point sort of last year where I'm like, this is not enough, this is not, this is not the way that we do this. We need to, we need to go, not go in a different direction, but we need to do more. And having those 2 years of learning about all of this basically as a 2 year research project in itself.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Starts to unpick where we go next. And so we did this first research study where we looked at 150 studies, reports from government, NHS, um, Justice Department, education, corporates, charities that would have taken us years to get through. And we worked with an amazing, amazing agency called Verve, who are an AI intelligence agency, which is brilliant, and they have basically their own AI tool coupled with amazing human analysts. And so we were like, we want to understand the status quo, so let's see what we've already done and let's look at what do the prevalence statistics say and what are the gaps and the barriers. And we've done that, we haven't released it yet, but we've just finished that project. We're doing another perception study, a baseline perception study, to understand actually, because no one's done this either. What, do people even know what the word neurodiversity means or is? Have they heard of it? Who do they think it kind of includes? Do they think it's common or niche, um, rare? Uh, do they have any biases towards gender, demographics, age groups? Neurotypes? So we’ll do that, and then we're going to move into a campaign.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
Uh, later in the year, um, and so we become really a research and campaign organisation, and that is mega exciting and feels like we've sort of done our homework for the last 2 years on understanding this space properly. Um, and now we get to kind of, yeah, properly put our head above the parapet, properly rally, um, our community, uh, yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I guess take it to the people who need to hear it.
Ben Branson
Yeah, and put some pressure policy-wise, um, government-wise, healthcare, education, justice, uh, and try and unite the amazing voices that there are in this space, but that are so fragmented and so siloed. And they're siloed on research, they're siloed on policy, they're siloed on diagnostic pathways, they're siloed within government. It's just lots of fragments, and, but everybody wants the same thing.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah.
Ben Branson
And so we want to try and, I don't know, take on the torch, or yeah, kind of, we're not a British Dyslexia Association. We're not a single kind of, um, you know, we want to be part of the neurodiversity movement and, so yeah, big things coming basically, um.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Hopefully we'll see lots more of these lovely green badges.
Ben Branson
Yeah, lots more green badges, which by the way I do have to plug, you can buy them on our website. They're £10 and you get 2 badges. You get 2 badges not because it's 2 for you, because it's really important to share one. And the money obviously goes to the charity and they are a symbol of support for neurodiversity. They do not say ‘I am autistic’ on them. They do not, you do not have to be neurodivergent to wear them, um, so yeah, do check out our website, uh, where you can buy them.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Amazing. Um, finally, so you have had some very interesting people on the podcast. You've had Kit Harington, who you've met in the flesh. You've had Heston Blumenthal, you've had Lottie Moss, um, Georgia Steele.
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, who haven't you managed to get on the chair that you would like to get? Because I hear anecdotally that there's nobody the Mishcon phone book can't reach.
Ben Branson
Oh.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
So.
Ben Branson
Oh that is a big gauntlet. Um, oh my God, we need another episode, I could real you off the list. Quite quickly, um, when setting up the charity, we created an Excel file called ND Bible, and it has the list of everybody we can publicly find who is a well-known, a public figure, a well-known person, um, and there's hundreds and hundreds of people on there. Um, I mean, there are so many, you know, Heston is my hero, um, and Heston said the most amazing thing to me when I asked him if he wanted to come on the podcast – ‘Only if you have dinner with me first’. And so I got to go, you know, I went to dinner with Heston Blumenthal, which, uh, like that was absolute heaven, absolute heaven. Um, but there are so many, I mean, you know, who, where do we start? Everyone from Stephen Fry, you know, would be amazing. Um, we had Cary Grant on who is wonderful. Um, my God, you've got me a little bit tongue-tied.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I was thinking before the podcast that we were brainstorming upstairs. Simone Biles?
Ben Branson
Simone Biles.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Tom Holland.
Ben Branson
Tom Holland.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I mean, you could do a collab.
Ben Branson
Yeah, so Tom Holland's launched a non-alcoholic beer. I need to get Tom Holland and Lewis Hamilton on because they've both got non-alcoholic brands.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
And then host a party.
Ben Branson
Yeah. Will.I.Am, who I met actually in the Seedlip days because I have peas tattooed on my knuckles.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I did notice that.
Ben Branson
Because we are pea farmers. Um, and I literally just walked up to him and I put this in his face and he whipped his phone out and was like, ‘yo, you gotta check this guy out, he's got peas on his’, you know. Um, Richard Branson would, we are in touch with, but would be amazing. Jamie Oliver needs to kind of come on. Um, oh God, there's, there’s so many people who can do so much from a visibility and a representation perspective across so many different sectors, um, for so many different audiences and, you know, my daughter is 6. She was diagnosed autistic last year. Her name's River, and she's wonderful. And seeing, even just seeing Simone Biles during the Olympics and me being able to share with her that, you know, her brain behaves differently, that was enough, that was enough for Riv to kind of just be absolutely obsessed with gymnastics and Simone Biles. And so we all know who we looked up to growing up, and it's the footballers or the gymnasts or the pop stars or whoever it is. But you can't see our brains. So you can't see that. So yeah, Lewis Capaldi, he needs to, yeah, we need him on as well.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Absolutely.
Ben Branson
So yeah, now you've said that, of Mishcon can get to everyone.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Are we going to receive a list?
Ben Branson
Yeah.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Okay, fine. We'll have the Bible and we'll just put phone numbers.
Ben Branson
Yeah we will, we will just…
Georgina Hathway, Associate
I've got the data protection team at the front row. I know we can't do that but.
Ben Branson
But yeah, we will. Yeah, we will send you a list.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Amazing.
Ben Branson
Because they, yeah, they've got an amazing opportunity to carry a message and shine a light on this.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Well, thanks very much to Ben. Um, have we got any questions? Okay.
Mishcon
Should we do them in the room first?
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Yeah, in the room first.
Audience
Hi, um, I was wondering if, obviously a lot would have to change, but if you were, if you went back and your 8 year old self was diagnosed at that time rather than being just sent to a psychiatrist, how do you think your trajectory might have changed?
Georgina Hathway, Associate
It's a really good question. Um, I am, my brain operates on kind of no regret and not what-ifs and so I kind of, I try not, I sort of tried not to go down that route of if only. Um, yeah, I don't know is the honest answer. I don't kind of, I don't think, oh my God, it would've suddenly all been different. Um, yeah, I probably, I'm probably too logical in that sense with that question to kind of, but when I think about that in the context of my daughters. God, they're going to grow up in such a different landscape with such a different narrative and in an education system that is by no means perfect. Um, but there will be, there will be more understanding and there will be more support and in my head, it is a foregone conclusion that this is all going to change. It's just a case of how long is it going to take and how painful is that change going to be. Um, so yeah, and I think some of the, there's a bill in Parliament at the moment around neurodiversity screening, you know, at schools earlier, intervening, getting upstream, um, which everybody will win from, everybody will benefit from. And so yeah, I think that's, yeah, probably it probably would have been different.
Mishcon
So we have a question online. Firstly though, Ben, just to let you know, I have a child called River, I have met Will.i.am, and I love to hug a tree, so we should hang out.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Winner!
Mishcon
Because, you know, we're the same person basically. Um, this question is from Daniel and he says, to what extent do you think your neurodiversity fed into the origins of Sylva and Seedlip? Would you have gone from sad basil in Tesco to a 16th century distillation manual if you weren't?
Ben Branson
No way. No way and I think I'm only, yeah, I'm trying to sort of embrace the fact that because of the way my brain works, that is why I think the way I think and therefore see what I see and come up with the ideas that I come up with. Um, so yeah, I owe, I don't owe all my brain to kind of Seedlip and Sylva, but it's definitely been a helpful factor.
Mishcon
Thank you.
Ben Branson
It's 17th century distillation, not 16th.
Mishcon
Yeah, Daniel.
Ben Branson
Sorry, Daniel.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Well, it sounds like, um, a lot of good has come from the way your brain works, so everyone in the room and online. Thank you.
Ben Branson
Thank you for having me.
Georgina Hathway, Associate
Um, and yeah, look forward to what you've got coming up in all respects. So if we could have a round of applause for Ben, please.
[applause]