Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM, however, the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today is Will Pearson, Co-Founder of Ocean Bottle, a company dedicated to enabling individuals around the world to make a global impact on ocean plastic. Having grown up partly in Norway, spending summers sailing in the Fjords - how nice does that sound – with his grandparents and developing his love for the ocean, it was while working as a deckhand on a yacht that Will saw first-hand the side effects of plastic consumption. He returned a man on a mission, determined to find a solution. Meeting his future co-founder Nick on their first day at London Business School, the friends brought their new idea, Ocean Bottle, to market in 2019. With the promise that each reusable water bottle sold would fund the collection of a thousand ocean bound plastic bottles. Giving back 15% of their revenue to plastic collection projects around the world and enabling people to exchange their plastic waste for money and access to social resources and aiming to create behaviour change around refilling reusable bottles, Ocean Bottle have recently hit a new milestone. They’ve collection 20 million kilos – that’s right, you heard it correctly – 20 million kilos of plastic and that’s around 2 billion bottles. But their aim is far greater than that. It’s great to have you, you’re the co-founder of Ocean Bottle?
Will Pearson
Well Elliot thank you so much for having me on, it’s great to be here.
Elliot Moss
Polite, you’re being polite now.
Will Pearson
We’re locked in.
Elliot Moss
We’re locked in. We were talking just before, uh, we started, uh, the programme about what young people say. Young people say a lot of things, they say that we’re ruining our planet, they say that climate change is real, they say that what can I do and there you were, a young, a young man who’d just started business school and you met this man, Nick, another man and you said, well we are going to do something. Tell me what problem you’re trying to solve?
Will Pearson
Well thank you, thank you very much. I think, you know, there is a lot of fear out there, um, and I think the fear is, is growing, uh, and I think, you know, we, we don’t really need more apathy, we need action. Uh, and so with Ocean Bottle, you know, we really saw a problem around ocean plastic pollution, it was around the time that Blue Planet 2 had come out with David Attenborough, the legend himself and, uh, yeah we just, we really saw that individuals wanted to do something about this challenge and just didn’t really know where to start and so, yeah Ocean Bottle is really just all about enabling people to be part of, you know, global impact and, you know, that collective, those collective decisions can kind of add up to something bigger, um, and yeah we’ve made a good dent. Yeah we’ve got, got a long way to go.
Elliot Moss
We’re all connected with nature, you know, I mean I’m a Londoner, I’ve not lived in Norway, I am not part Norwegian like you, I haven’t sailed around the Fjords but I feel obviously a connection when I relax and let go of daily life, I know that I’m in the right place and being a human we’re very lucky. For you it was slightly exaggerated. Was it from a very young age that you felt super connected and is that still something that you feel today?
Will Pearson
Yeah definitely. I think, um, you know, being half Norwegian having been lucky to spend time there growing up we are really spoilt in a way with, with nature just, you know, lack of, you know, people, so much space and just a lot of kind of undisturbed, untouched nature and so…
Elliot Moss
What was that like as a kid? Was it just…
Will Pearson
It was just, it was, it was like, it’s like when I think back to being a kid it was like a dream, you know, it really was. Like, we’d be on a boat and we’d look through a little sort of orange binocular that would look down under the water, so you could kind of see all the sea life that was going on below and I remember just spending hours, you know, staring at that or like just looking out of the kind of blue horizon. So, yeah definitely kind of stuck with me and, and has continued to. And you know, the reality living in London, you feel quite disconnected from it and standing on the tube probably the last thing you’re thinking about is the ocean, uh, let alone nature so yeah.
Elliot Moss
Can you remember how you felt when you were that age and, and just there in the water?
Will Pearson
I think it, there was a sense of wonder. Obviously you’ve got that sense of wonder as a kid right, that’s kind of baked in to you and that, that kind of goes a little bit with time, um, but it was really a sense of all about the scale of it, you know, the beauty of it and that was even at quite a young age I think. Um, it’s hard to really like remember those memories but it, I think it definitely sat with me.
Elliot Moss
An indelible mark meant most likely for you whereas I grew up at the end of the Jubilee Line, not quite as salubrious. Will Pearson’s my Business Shaper…
Will Pearson
Well we can swap back.
Elliot Moss
I’d like to swap actually I wouldn’t mind, we’d probably be in very different places if we did swap lives as well. Will Pearson is my Business Shaper, stay with me for much more. He’s the co-founder of Ocean Bottle. They are doing fantastic things, well they are doing fantastic things because you’re selling nice things. That’s the, at the end of the day right, the product has to be good, um, people have told me that over the years and it’s sort of common sense but you, you’re using one at the minute. Can you just lift up your, your…
Will Pearson
Here you go the OB.
Elliot Moss
There it is.
Will Pearson
Always glued at the hip…
Elliot Moss
Always glued to the hip.
Will Pearson
…or in my hand.
Elliot Moss
Tell me about, so, so you launch Ocean Bottle in 2019, um, what informs your design aesthetic? How do you get to where you got to because that doesn’t just happen?
Will Pearson
Yeah I think, um, we knew really early on, uh, that we couldn’t just have a product that’s kind of impact led, uh, it wouldn’t be enough, um, in the world we’re in and so we knew that we kind of had to really go hard core on the product design, uh, and really create a product that was best in category. Uh, so we, we actually designed the product in Oslo in Norway, it was about a year and a half designing and developing it. Something like 3,000 hours designing a water bottle which is sort of, you think is kind of is ridiculous to us.
Elliot Moss
It just happens. But it’s not though is it, so just give me an example of the kind of thinking that goes into a, a water bottle?
Will Pearson
Yeah so first we, we leant into three things, so one was aesthetics. We wanted it to be minimalist, Scandinavian, something people wouldn’t get bored of and, and something that would actually appeal to a lot of people as well. So that was actually really important that like, you know, look at it, kind of it looked, looked great. Two was functionality. So it was actually the first insulated bottle that you could put in the dishwasher and it’s got kind of a dual opening, wider, you know, so you can fill up with any kind of drink.
Elliot Moss
A dual opening?
Will Pearson
Yes so you can, you can pop open, uh, this part which has…
Elliot Moss
He’s demonstrating right now.
Will Pearson
…got some wide bits.
Elliot Moss
Yes.
Will Pearson
Demonstrating to you in the studio. So yeah if you want cold water, chuck some ice in, uh, but if you want to chuck a cocktail in there as well, be my, be my guest. So it’s, yeah function is it’s a great product as well and, and people seem to really love it. And then thirdly, obviously core is the sustainability of the product itself. Um, and so yeah, we’ve, you know, we’ve invested a lot in the type of materials, uh, but it, it’s a continuous journey because the materials that are available out there, you know, are still not perfect so we’re, we’re continuing to sort of pushing forward on that.
Elliot Moss
When you finish, it suddenly occurred to me, when you’ve finished with your water bottle whenever that is, what do you do with it? I mean does it get recycled? Is everything recyclable?
Will Pearson
Yeah so it’s got every Ocean Bottle comes with a 10 year warranty and we’ve got a sort of spare parts programme so you can keep them going, you know, like if your kid, uh, rips off the loop and starts chewing it, we’ll send you, we’ll send you a replacement.
Elliot Moss
Well if I get hungry, I mean often I do offer them things.
Will Pearson
Silicon is quite tasty…
Elliot Moss
Yeah, I mean the kitchen is full of…
Will Pearson
...actually.
Elliot Moss
…it’s, it’s like, it’s a Pandora’s box…
Will Pearson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
…for children. Generally you want to eat the food in the fridge but you know, you may get hungry over there with, with those materials. But when you’re making that stuff and you’re 3,000 hours in and then all the other things that come with the start-up and all the connective, you know, challenges. Are you in those moments super mission lead? People talk about being mission lead and obviously well you are a mission lead business, you’re a mission lead person. Or is the reality that, it’s just stuff to do?
Will Pearson
I think it’s, it’s a bit of both. So I think you have those moments in the week where it’s, it’s kind of mission lead and, you know, you might have a moment in the shower and you’re kind of, you know, you’re dreaming of something on the impact front but really it’s, it’s a lot of stuff to do. I think that’s, you know, that’s, it’s just a never ending to do list. So it’s really like any business but I suppose you just, you try and bake in the impact elements and they become a core part of, of, you know, what you’re doing.
Elliot Moss
And the combination of the two of you from the beginning. How you obviously met I think on your first day at London Business School at your MBA, still going together. Your role is slightly different now but you are essentially both there. What would have been, I read somewhere that you worked on your relationship, you got some external help as it were which I think is very sensible because relationships are hard at the best of times. When you’re in business even harder. Just tell me a little bit about the dynamic?
Will Pearson
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Be as honest as you like.
Will Pearson
No, no, no, for sure it is being, you know, having a co-founder relationship is like a marriage so it’s really important but what I can say is that, you know it really wasn’t a meeting of minds kind of from the beginning so I’d studied engineering, I wanted to convert into kind of business and, you know, creating impact through, through that and Nick had actually studied history, uh, and he also, he really wanted to kind of reshape capitalism from the inside. So that was where, you know, we met. I want to do something like ocean plastic, he wanted to do a kind of business for good venture. Um, so the fact that our values were kind of so aligned from the start really has helped massively along the way because, you know, even if you’re, uh, in disagreement about one particular thing ultimately you can kind of, you know, you can find common ground and figure out a way forward because you’re aligned on, on your values. Um, and yeah it’s, it’s been an absolute rollercoaster. We’ve had some cracking moments together…
Elliot Moss
And some moments that have almost, almost cracked you.
Will Pearson
...and, and the total absolute loads so, you know, but starting out you’ve got no team, no resource, we didn’t really know anyone back then. We didn’t know any investors, uh, so it was, it was, uh, yeah I suppose you’re doing every aspect of, of the business. Uh, but everyone that’s on Jazz Shapers has probably spoken about that.
Elliot Moss
Yeah it’s a journey. I’m going to come back to a specific thing and question of how the partnership held up at that moment involves water bottles and Glastonbury, don’t get into sort of post-traumatic stress disorder. Much more coming up from guess Will Pearson. You’ll find out about Glastonbury as well if you stay with me. He’s going to be back in a couple of minutes. Right now we’re going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series which you can find on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites Business Founders to share their practical advice and industry insights if you’re lucky for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip we hear from Paul Beastall, CEO of HutanBio, a technology company aiming to decouple long distance transportation from fossil fuels with HBX - I love it when people brand stuff – their zero carbon biofuel.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, lucky you, and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your favourite podcast platform. My guest today is Will Pearson – I hope you’ve been listening – Co-Founder of Ocean Bottle, a company dedicated to enabling individuals around the world to make a global impact on ocean plastic and it is that thing, isn’t it, it’s the dent because people do ask that I care, I care but what can I do and you’re sort of trying to bridge the gap. It started off and I, I mentioned, um, earlier the Glastonbury experience and when things don’t go right. You talked to me about the 3,000 hours that went into product design. But in the beginning when you were trying stuff out I understand that there were leaky bottles and things weren’t so pretty. Talk to me a little bit about that and more importantly, how you dealt with it and what you learnt from it?
Will Pearson
Yeah I mean, uh, I think every start-up has, has had its rocky moments and we’ve had more than our, our fair few. Um, yeah there’s, there’s, uh, definitely a couple of anecdotes I could, I could share, uh, now or after but yeah, Glastonbury was a really fun one. Uh, so Nick my co-founder, he was really trying to like hunt down every, I suppose both of us were sort of knocking down every door possible right, that we could find, how could we, you know, get some celebrities involved, how could we get, you know, the product into interesting spaces. So at one point he actually phoned the James Bond producer’s manager to try and get us on to the film set, uh, which almost went ahead and then they were sort of actually, who are you? And that kind of, that all fell apart. Glastonbury was, was really interesting. We had basically created the first batch of 1,000 Ocean bottles. So it was the first thousand in the world, got a couple left.
Elliot Moss
What year was this?
Will Pearson
I’m not sure they’ve gone up in value actually because they were all leaking. Um…
Elliot Moss
This was 2020 or something?
Will Pearson
…this was, this was, no this was 2019.
Elliot Moss
2019.
Will Pearson
Yeah this was 2019 over of Covid…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Will Pearson
…and the world turning upside down. Um, and yeah, you know, we, we obviously invested a huge amount into design, we found this amazing production partner and ultimately they just, they ended up, you know, not, not really kind of fulfilling on, on the promise of, of the design that we developed and so probably a third of those bottles were leaking and we even had on the packaging, you know, anti-leak sill and all that stuff.
Elliot Moss
The very best.
Will Pearson
But people, people were quite kind about it, you know, we had emails coming in. We had one musician’s drama who got a bottle and said, you know, could you send me another lid it seems to be leaking everywhere. Um, but people were, you know, they were into the mission, um, and they were quite supportive.
Elliot Moss
Do you think, I mean did it matter, did it matter that it didn’t work?
Will Pearson
No I think it was just all part of the, part of the journey. Part of the learning, uh, and I suppose it made us actually take that part of it, sort of, you know, the operations and production, because I was kind of doing that, trying to do that, uh, down at the warehouse sending out bottles to the wrong places and you know, all of that good stuff, um, and then yeah, we end up hiring an amazing, uh, ops person who’s now actually our director of ops. So she’s, she’s stayed with us since the beginning.
Elliot Moss
And are those sorts of things the wake up calls that you need in a start-up where you go, I’m trying but I kind of know I’m winging it?
Will Pearson
Uh, I’d rather, you’d probably rather not have them, you know, if I’m honest, um, but yeah I suppose you learn from every, every mistake you make and if you don’t learn you end up doing it again and the second time round you’re like, well now we should probably definitely do something about this.
Elliot Moss
Will Pearson is my Business Shaper today, he’s the Co-Founder of Ocean Bottle, talking about when things go wrong. And you’re laughing about it now but the serious side of it of course and I’ve read about this and, um, I think you’ve been quite open. You’re a bit of a perfectionist, you know, the world is on your shoulders in a way literally because you’re not just, you know, I help people grow their businesses. You’re trying to stop the planet dying and the oceans disappearing. I mean there’s a slight dissonance between those two but there’s a serious moral obligation on you that you’re going to feel personally, there’s the business side of it, there’s the start-up pressure. It got too much for you and you’ve talked about that. Tell me a little bit about your journey there and where you are now and you look, you look like you’re on top of things but, uh, what was happening for you?
Will Pearson
Yeah, yeah. Um, well I think, I think, you know, a lot, a lot of entrepreneurs probably experience, you know, burn out and their own challenges on the journey, uh, because it is, it is a tough one, um, and for me, yeah for me personally I think I had, you know, I just put a lot of expectation on myself, uh, that, this was definitely going to succeed, it was going, you know, we were going to save the ocean as a single start-up which was ridiculous you know.
Elliot Moss
Within a couple of weeks of starting, I mean obviously I mean.
Will Pearson
Yeah exactly. Uh, and I, you know, I quite quickly learnt that actually there’s other amazing organisations out there with initiatives that doing great stuff and it really is a collective effort so I think that one actually went away more quickly, uh, but that pressure stayed there for quite a, quite a long time and I think there was, I really kind of, you know, the company was really a part of me so if the company failed, I’ve kind of failed in life, sort of my, my entirety and I think that was a really unhealthy thing and so what’s been great since I had a sort of, I remember, it was probably 2022, I sort of really couldn’t see the wood through the trees and just sort of hit the wall a little bit. And, yeah, since then I’ve really just tried to decouple myself, you know, my identity from the company.
Elliot Moss
And how have you done that Will because it’s one thing conceptually where you go, I totally get it.
Will Pearson
Oh yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
When you’re in it though, when you’re in it and you’re really…
Will Pearson
Yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
…in it and the, the black cloud is upon you, you can’t see the wood through the trees so how did you practically get out of that and how do you stay out of that?
Will Pearson
Yeah so I think it, it’s a few things and trying to do them quite deliberately and, uh, so what, you know, one of them was really making time for like things like exercise, seriously as a, as a sort of circuit breaker. Doing meditation, just doing that for a while. I found that recently.
Elliot Moss
It’s quite hard actually.
Will Pearson
It’s quite, it’s really hard, really hard.
Elliot Moss
Sounds ridiculous but…
Will Pearson
I’m someone with, you know, incessant thinking, that’s what it is, can’t stop.
Elliot Moss
I can relate to that.
Will Pearson
Exactly. Perfect. Um, we’ll leave the brain storm for after. Uh, but yeah, no I think, uh, those parts were definitely sort of part of that decoupling and then it was also sort of being a little less involved in the day-to-day of the business so…
Elliot Moss
Intentionally removing yourself.
Will Pearson
Yeah exactly, just having a little bit of distance from stuff and then actually you could, you know, we’ve hired people that are way better at things than I am and so we’ve got this incredible team now and, you know, see them get on with the things that they’re really good at is awesome and so that for me personally, has been really great actually to get you know through those early days where you’re doing absolutely everything to slightly more established, not established.
Elliot Moss
But do you, do you end up, I mean, it may sound strange, but do you talk to yourself. I do, I mean I say it’s only because in high pressure moments I sort of, I do have a word with myself. I just wondered if you did or if I’m the only lunatic?
Will Pearson
Yeah, no I probably do talk to myself but it’s probably more of the like ideas and getting carried away…
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Will Pearson
…with, oh we could do this, we could do this, let’s do this, why are we doing this.
Elliot Moss
Okay.
Will Pearson
You know, that kind of thinking.
Elliot Moss
But did you feel yourself coming out of it? Did you, was there a moment when you go, okay, I’m hand, I’m starting to handle this?
Will Pearson
Yeah definitely. You know, it was probably, it was definitely a few months, yeah, but, but you know, now it’s exciting. I’m sort of, and that process as well, you know, you do fall a bit out of love with what you’ve created because you’ve sort of created your own nightmare in, in some respects, um, but definitely, you know, fallen back in love with the company, the mission and, and everything so it’s incredibly exciting.
Elliot Moss
Final chat coming up with Will Pearson and we’ve got some soul for you from Alice Clark, that’s in just a moment, you’ll hear how his excitement is manifesting itself for the future of Ocean Bottle.
Will Pearson is my Business Shaper, and he was talking about how he’s fallen back in love with Ocean Bottle. That sense of not being along is, is critical. You talked about other endeavours that are looking towards saving our oceans, um, I’ve read a lot about you’re, you bringing together other businesses to talk to these businesses to say, what can we do with regard to addressing plastic waste issues. Other member, member of your board said something to you which I, I think is worth you sharing with me now just very briefly about this love point. Just can you share that and then also talk a bit about your coach as well because I think that’s something else that’s relevant to how you’ve managed to be in a good place?
Will Pearson
Yeah definitely. Uh, we had an amazing board member who, you know, had been a sort of, uh, what’s it called, a multi-time founder, we’ll call it a multi-time founder today, a new word.
Elliot Moss
A serial founder.
Will Pearson
Serial founder, thank you. A serial founder.
Elliot Moss
I like multi time more though, I think that’s better. Multi time.
Will Pearson
Multi time.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to multi time.
Will Pearson
Multi time, uh, yeah and I’d really been through the ringer and so experienced it and yeah, he, he said to both of us, both Nick and myself, hey guys if you don’t enjoy the journey, you know, no one else is going to enjoy for you and when it’s over, you know, if, if uh, whatever happens in the company, it will be over. So you kind of, you know, you need to enjoy it and actually if you’re enjoying it everything becomes better. I think the business just moves forward better actually.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, yeah.
Will Pearson
And then on the coaching side, yeah I did get a coach, um, as I had a bit of a, you know, when I got into that sort of tricky period, and that was really great because it was, it was ultimately sort of an accountability partner who knew, you know, what were the best things to be doing, um, you know, he kind of pushed me and say, have you been, you know, prioritising personal life, meditation, exercise, all the things that you kind of commit to, you know, with, with that person. So that really helped.
Elliot Moss
But someone on your, on your side?
Will Pearson
Totally.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, I mean that’s the point, there for you. And, and as you developed your relationship with Nick and again, the conscious conversations you’ve had with him, the different roles now I believe that you stepped back from being the, the co-CEO and you’re involved with all sorts of other bits of the business and you’ve got more people in there. You must be in like the perfect position as it were to take things in the right direction. Is that how it’s feeling now?
Will Pearson
Yeah definitely and I think it was, you know, Nick and I kind of playing to our strengths. Being co-CEO is challenging as well so it’s great him taking the baton, he’s done an amazing job at that, um, and other incredible team members as well. And yeah, it’s really allowed me to do more of this kind of stuff which has, which has been really fun, um, but also some spicy special projects, you know, big partnerships, uh, you know, really just supporting the business where I can, uh, so it’s been, it’s been really good.
Elliot Moss
And, and just one last thing, this Ocean Co that was set up in 2023, the track and trace which sounds sort of, it reminds me of Covid but of course this is about, this is about the um…
Will Pearson
Good kind of track and trace.
Elliot Moss
Yeah a nice kind of track and trace, like where’s it been, where, how much plastic has been, you know, saved as it were in this, in, in this product. These things, are there more of them coming down the line? Have you got other ideas?
Will Pearson
Yeah so we, we always had a dream about, um, having that kind of traceability. All the, all the cool sustainability initiatives and the most sort of cutting edge ones have, have got that and so we really wanted to enable people to see where they’ve made an impact. We’ve partnered with a lot of companies as well who do, you know, co-branded products for their staff events, and so for them to be able to see, you know, the impact that they’ve made, you know, if they’ve got a 1,000 Ocean Bottles they’ve collected, the equivalent of a million plastic bottles, uh, that’s, that’s really great and so yeah, we build that really for ourselves and then, uh, we saw kind of an opportunity to allow other brands to, uh, do what we’re doing and kind of, you know, add plastic collection to the mix.
Elliot Moss
Bigger the tent right, bigger the tent the better.
Will Pearson
Exactly, so we’ve got a long way to go on that one, uh, but it is, it’s still in motion and, uh…
Elliot Moss
It’s a big idea and that’s the thing. If you can get people behind it, then those, that momentum builds and that’s a kind of long-term play.
Will Pearson
Exactly.
Elliot Moss
It’s not going to get fixed next week. Um, I know you want to, we’re going to have to ask you your song choice and why you chose it in a moment and we’re getting, we’re going to be closing too fast. I’ve read that you are going to be sailing around the world within the next five years. I’m going to ask you, because I’m now your coach. Are you going to do this? Can you, can you commit to it right now here on Jazz Shapers.
Will Pearson
Are we going to lock in?
Elliot Moss
Are we going to lock in? Will is it, are you actually going to do it?
Will Pearson
I, you know, I am determined to do it, it’s, it’s been a dream for a very long time. Uh, and so luckily my other half, uh, Megan, she is on board.
Elliot Moss
Literally or just from the side?
Will Pearson
Literally not, not quite onboard yet, literally. Uh, but yeah, she’s up for it and, um, you know, really excited to do that. You know, I can’t think of a better adventure.
Elliot Moss
It feels like a Netflix series of some sort.
Will Pearson
It’s sort of full circle thing as well, you know, getting back out at sea you know.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, yeah.
Will Pearson
Sort of being, being, um, trumped and back on, back on the boat, back on the water yeah.
Elliot Moss
Yeah and, actually that is what a great way of bringing to life exactly what Ocean Bottle is all about. Have the cameras going, have the podcasts going, I can visualise it now.
Will Pearson
Yeah, we’ll get you out there.
Elliot Moss
I, I was angling literally. Um, it’s been great to talk to you Will, really a brilliant, a brilliant project, it’s more than a project, it’s kind of core to, uh, human existence and how we interact with our planet so really good luck with that and, good luck with enjoying the journey, good luck with enjoying the ride. Just before I let you disappear what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Will Pearson
It’s What a Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong and it is actually my favourite song choice because it was my grandparents’ favourite song, uh, and you know, it’s, uh, you know, I think what it speaks to is definitely close to my heart. It is a wonderful world so let’s protect it.
Elliot Moss
Louis Armstrong of course with What a Wonderful World, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Will Pearson. He talked about the importance of alignment in values between him and his co-founder, Nick, really critical as you think about who is going to go on the journey with you. He talked about creating a product that was best in its category, not simply driven by impact which is critical but actually the product standing on its own two feet. If you don’t enjoy the journey, he was told by one of his wise board members, no one else will for you. A really smart piece of advice. That’s it from me and Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds of more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.