Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM, however, the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues. My guest today is author and Baptist minister, Steve Chalke, MBE, Founder of the Oasis Trust, a UK charity dedicated to building inclusive local communities. Having decided one night, aged a mere 14 years old, to not believe the story his school was telling him that he and his peers would never amount to much, and to instead believe in the church's story that his life had meaning and he has potential, Steve came home and told his mum he was going to be a Christian and a minister, and of course he'd be setting up a school, a hostel, and a hospital, obviously. In 1985 he founded UK charity Oasis Trust, with their first project, Number 3, a hostel for young women facing homelessness. And today Oasis operates across multiple countries, providing housing, education, healthcare, and various community-building initiatives, alongside in England running a mere 56 schools and the UK's first secure school, Oasis Restore. A ground breaking therapeutic alternative to youth prisons designed to support high-risk children and young people in the justice system. Steve's also the founder of the Stop the Traffik Global Coalition and a former United Nations special advisor on human trafficking. He doesn't do very much, does he? Steve Chalke, MBE is my Business, but it's kind of, I don't want to, what to call you? Community Shaper, World Shaper.
Steve Chalke
Steve, just Steve.
Elliot Moss
Just call yourself, I'll call you Uncle Steve maybe. We'll just call you Steve. Steve, I remember because you had an impact on me. I met you 20 something years ago when the advertising agency I was currently, then MD of, managing director of, was helping you launch Stop the Traffik. That's one of about 4,000 amazing things that you've done in your, in your life so far. Just help me understand how you have interpreted your faith and why faith for you means action rather than the words on the page and the feelings that we might have about whether God exists and so on and so forth.
Steve Chalke
Well, what I'd say Elliot is this. Much more than a master plan, everybody's thinking about the master plan for their life or their business or their career or whatever. You need a master vision. That's it. And if you've got a master vision, all the other bits kind of fall into place. Life takes you endlessly, doesn't it, where you weren't expecting it to. You're being introduced to new people with new ideas and new situations all the time. But if you've got a master vision, you know what fits and what works, etcetera. Um, so Stop the Traffik, the way that came about was simply that Oasis had begun working in India. We were working in India because of that story you just told of how I, when I was 14 wandering home from the church, I realised that their story was a better story than my school story. It was not hard to be better than my school story, to tell you the truth, which was you failed the 11+, you've not got no brains, you'll work with your hands, not your head all your life, and you're not worth putting in for O-levels, which were the precursor to GCSEs. So that was my story. But down at this church, they taught us that, um, that our lives mattered, that they had meaning and purpose. And they taught us what gets called the Lord's Prayer. Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth. And I think if I was going to sum up what's guided me through life, it's that statement. The God of love entrusts us to work with, with him, with her, um, to bring about peace, to bring about belonging, to bring about opportunity for others. Um, so that's what's always driven me. That's my faith that's driven me in that way. So there I am in, we'd begun work in India. Oasis, why does it start working in India? Because my dad was Indian. And so, um, I was invited to go out to India to talk about some of the youth work we were doing in this country and I popped down to Madras, Chennai as it's now called, to see where my dad lived. And, and there I'm met people and the whole idea of beginning to work in India came about. But once we were working in India, not just in Chennai, but in Mumbai and Bangalore as well, I began to see there were endless kids just on the street, as you'll know, living in slums. There's no safeguarding, no one's looking after them at all. And then we set up schools in the slums, because schools is what we do. Quite easy to do, actually, set up a school in an Indian slum, a lot easier than setting up one in the UK, which takes years, that just takes days there. And then our staff were reporting back that some of the kids, they just disappear. They just disappear. And we began to ask, "What's happening to them?" And we discovered that they were being kidnapped. These kids were being stolen. And that led to the forming of Stop the Traffik. And because we set up Stop the Traffik, in the end, the UN asked me to be their advisor on these things. Life's got this, higgledy-piggledy way of coming together if you're guided by a big vision.
Elliot Moss
You're a person that has always believed that no one should be left out. I was looking on, you know, in the research I do, um, and I looked at that word inclusivity, but community. If you, I suppose if I was saying what you were shaping, it's you help shape communities, you help bring them to life. Why was it at that age of 14 that the religious world appealed to you so much? You can't invent that. People, people say religion is important. People say you should go along and listen. People say you're around someone who has good ideas, who's pure, who brings love. But if you don't feel it and you don't believe it, it's not going to happen. What happened for you, and why all these years later is your faith still so strong?
Steve Chalke
Well, I think that my faith and that youth group that I went to, Friday night youth group, rescued me in every possible way you can be rescued. It was my salvation, genuinely. Um, the point is, my dad was Indian, came to this country after the Second World War in the Indian equivalent of the Windrush thing, because there was, you know, come to the mother country and help us rebuild it after the Blitz, etcetera, etcetera. So in, in he came and of course, as we all know, because we know it most famously from the Windrush generation, that the invitation was a lot stronger than the welcome.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Steve Chalke
When people arrived, there was nothing for them. And my dad came to the mother country, India had been part of the British Empire, of course, and then discovers that life's really tough. And he had very dark skin, Southern Indian with very dark skin. He found my mum, he couldn't find work, uh, because of his colour. In the end, he ended up in a labouring job. He was highly intelligent, but couldn't get the skilled work but he ended up working in a canteen for what was London Transport, ran all the buses. And that's where he met my mum, who's completely fair-skinned. I mean, my mum, who only died very recently in the last few years, if she went out in the sun, she'd go blotchy red. And here he is, really dark-skinned. And they married one another. And a whole part of her family would never come to our house because he was there, or they'd come when he wasn't there, you know, they so disapproved of her marrying this Black man, as they, they said he was. And then I grew up with this nickname at school. I was called half-caste. Everybody called me half-caste. You know, and I never took offence to it. I just thought, ‘I am half-caste. My skin is a different colour to everyone else’. London, uh, especially and our big cities are completely different now, aren't they? Because they're kaleidoscopic, etcetera, etcetera. Now no one sees me as half-caste. They just think I've been on a Mediterranean holiday.
Elliot Moss
Honestly, you know very well. Yes, was Turkey nice?
Steve Chalke
So, but, but my mum and dad lived in poverty. My mother, mother and father never had a bank account. Never. We never had a car. We never went on a holiday. I never went in a restaurant until I was an adult when I went with someone else. They lived in true poverty. We had no heating in our house, etcetera, etcetera. Except we got a paraffin heater, remember those? And, you know, we lived in South London. And so all of that got kind of projected on me externally, and life had no hope. I mean, my parents were great, and honestly, and I wouldn't swap my upbringing for anything else, but there was no talk of what you could be or become or do. Life was just about scraping by. And then I went to this church youth group only because I fancied a girl, it wasn't some kind of religious calling. I didn't, I wasn't magnetically drawn to church.
Elliot Moss
Mary, Mary Hooper.
Steve Chalke
Mary Hooper. I was magnetically drawn.
Elliot Moss
A different kind of religious calling.
Steve Chalke
Yeah. But the problem was Mary was 15 and I was 14 when I started going, I didn't understand a law of the universe that 15 year old girls are not looking at 14 year old wimps, are they? So one night she tells me, or gets her friend to tell me, that she's never going to go out with me and she thinks I'm a bit ugly and I wander home and that was my moment of decision because I thought, I'm never going back to that church, that youth group, because they're all laughing at me. Um, and then it came to me on this short walk home that the story at that church was, as I've already said, you're made by God, your life's got meaning and purpose and someone, I remember them saying, even if you never discover it, that purpose is there. Whereas down at my school, we were just write-offs, you know, we'd failed the 11+ and we were headed for factory life. That's the way that education was then. So it was a, I mean, it was a no-brainer really. Like, this story's a lot better than that one. And to your point, Elliot, it gave me an anchor.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Steve Chalke
Which I still hold. And you are absolutely right. You can't invent this stuff, can you?
Elliot Moss
No.
Steve Chalke
So I always say to people, this was a gift that was given to me from outside. At 8.00 o'clock that night, I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. By quarter past 10.00 on the way home, I knew what the purpose of every day was. Mark Twain once said, ‘There are only two important days in your life, the day you're born and the day you find out why’. And I was given the gift of discovering why.
Elliot Moss
What you won't know about Steve Chalke, but you now will, is that he's also been given the accolade of 8th most powerful man in Croydon. And I will explain a little bit more about that shortly. Stay with me for much more from my Business Shaper, it’s Steve Chalke, Founder of the Oasis Trust. Much more coming up from my guest Steve Chalke in a couple of minutes, don't go anywhere.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very programme again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today is author, speaker, Baptist minister, Steve Chalke, Founder of the Oasis Trust, which is a UK charity dedicated to building inclusive local communities. It's a lot going on. And again, having followed you, I sound like some strange person who's been following the progress of Steve Chalke, but you have been a person that people go to when we're in trouble, when they're talking about schools closing in COVID, when they're talking about, you know, homelessness, the connectivity of these issues and you've seen and you've stitched together a very integrated approach to stuff. It's a very big organisation, Steve. Moving away from being a Baptist minister and a man with ideas and a man with passion, how have operationalised this thing? Where do you sit in the practicalities of a lot of moving pieces?
Steve Chalke
Yes, that's a very good question. And, uh, there's a simple answer, actually. I began Oasis when I was just approaching my 30th birthday. On my 40th birthday, I don't know how many staff, perhaps we had a couple of hundred staff, I don't know and we had a board meeting on my birthday. And so the board sit round with me, they did take me out for a pizza afterwards, the board sat round with me and they said, ‘Steve’, I can remember the guy who said it to me, his name's Graham. He said, ‘Steve, we've come to a very serious point. You are 40. What are we going to do when you fall under the bus? You could be run over by a bus at any point. What about succession?’ Well, I'd never heard of succession, you know? So they gave me a quick, you know, ‘Well, what are we going to do without you?’ And, um, then somebody gave me some papers from Harvard Business School business school. I think I got them from a friend on succession planning and I became addicted to this succession planning because I was 40 and I was likely to die at any moment. That's what I'd been informed of.
Elliot Moss
That was the message.
Steve Chalke
That was the message. So the truth is, um, I didn't understand most of what I read and actually subsequently have discovered most of what I read was all theory, not practise and nobody had ever done it. But the truth is, from my 40th birthday, we have worked really hard at succession planning, so now, Oasis, which in this country employs just over 6,000 people and there are thousands more volunteers and 33,000 kids in our schools and then we run housing programmes, all sorts of things, but, um what we've done is we've, we are a number of charities. Oasis isn't one charity. Oasis runs some businesses, but it's a number of national charities. There's a housing charity, an education charity, a justice charity, a community development charity, Stop the Traffik, etcetera, etcetera. And each of those charities has got a board, and each of those charities has a chief executive and in the middle sits the original charity I set up in 1985, Oasis Charitable Trust. And, uh, it has a board and a chief executive and all of these others that I've talked about are wholly owned subsidiaries of the central charity. So I was at, I happened to be in a bar last night with the, uh, what we call our group chief executive. His name's Dave. And so he, he, all of the other CEOs work with him so that we're joined up in our vision. But we were sitting in a bar together because the guy I know who's interested in some of the things that he's been developing becoming part of Oasis over the next few, few years. So we're sitting there talking and I get asked the same question by this guy, you know, he says, he's lovely. He says, ‘But Steve, what would happen if you're not here? You know, would it all fall apart?’ And I said simply this, ‘If I were to die in this bar now, it'd be slightly embarrassing for you and mug your evening up badly and everybody else. But tomorrow morning, every house, every school, every project, in the UK, in India, in the African countries where we work, etcetera, etcetera, across the world, everything would open’. And of course, most of our staff in this country, let alone any other country, well, they've heard about me, but they don't know me. So they'd be slightly upset, but they say, oh, the old codger finally, you know, and on they go.
Elliot Moss
Well, I want to challenge that, but yeah, I'm sure you're right on a practical level, but I want to come back to that. But that’s what I understand.
Steve Chalke
So that's, but that's where I fit in. I'm the founder.
Elliot Moss
Yes.
Steve Chalke
I am not the chief executive. I'm not, you know, I've poured in vision, people come to me for ideas and, and support. I mentor a lot of people, but they do it, not me.
Elliot Moss
Steve Chalke's my new community world peace Shaper. You talked about, oh, they wouldn't notice if, you know, if the old codger had gone and all that, which of course I know is not true. Again, over the years you've done a lot of things, you've invented things, you've created things, you've founded things. When you founded your very first thing, how did you get over the hump of, I've got this idea and now I need to make it happen? What was the secret source for Steve Chalke way back in the day.
Steve Chalke
It is that sense of calling, that sense of I have a responsibility to do that, which is why earlier I said, you know, I had the gift of discovering at the age of 14 what my life was about. It is a gift. It is a gift. And it came to me very early. So, um, what, what actually happened is I eventually, at the age of 21, when I did theology and I got married to Cornelia, my wife, who was also a girl in that same youth group, if there's one girl that doesn't fancy you, there's always another one. So, so we got on.
Elliot Moss
Life lesson.
Steve Chalke
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Plenty of fish in the sea.
Steve Chalke
And then I got a job, I got a job in 1980 as a youth worker in a church and I worked there for 4 years. So Cornelia and I, we had a baby and a toddler and I was working there for 4 years and loving it. It was great.
Elliot Moss
Did you? I was going, because obviously sermons, looking after people in the community, these are things that drive leaders, religious leaders of communities. But it wasn't enough, obviously.
Steve Chalke
No, and actually I think sermons and talks can become very detached from reality. It happens in churches, it happens in business. How many business leadership courses have you been in and thought, this guy's, you know, he's read a few books, you know? But it's kind of, how earthed in reality and the pain of life is much, much of this stuff? So, and it happens in churches as well. But I, um, I was working hard at big youth projects, etcetera, etcetera, and they began to get on the local radio and then I was asked to be on the regional TV, etcetera, etcetera. And I realised that these ideas would go, were travelable, but I needed to set up a house for the kids who had nowhere to go to live in, a school and a hospital. So one day I said to my wife, we were both 28 at the time, I said to Cornelia, like, we've got to leave, we’ve got to leave this job. Not that we don't love the people, I still go back there, you know, they still invite me to speak at the church, which is wonderful like, but we've got to leave. We've got to tell them we're going because I've got to start a house and a school and a hospital. So she said, ‘Well, how are we going to do that?’ I said, ‘Well, I've no idea, but we have to give up the job, which means giving up the salary, and we’ve just got to throw ourselves in. No one's going to employ me to do this stuff. Uh, we’ve just got to give up’. So in September 1985, 1st of September, I left my job. The church very kindly said we could live in the house where we live for another 12 months. They wouldn't pay us, we were out on our own and after that 12 months, we were losing that, but we had free accommodation for 12 months, though no income and I often say to Cornelia, I'm glad I put this proposal to her when she was 28, because if I'd had done it when she was 38, she would have just sworn at me and we'd have never got going. But we were both naive enough to just go for it. And it was a huge struggle to survive. It was a huge struggle to survive, but we got going.
Elliot Moss
But if there's a, the ‘got going’ thing, just very briefly, because for those people listening, they'll go, ‘Yeah, that's great. They got going, but how?’ What's the first thing you do? Just that one, the one thing that gets you over the start line. What is it?
Steve Chalke
Okay, so I was blessed with the fact that I knew what I wanted to do. I was also blessed with the fact that as a youth worker, I'd learnt to stand on a stage and speak, or etcetera, etcetera, and communicate in a classroom so, and because of the youth work and the profile it had got, um, in, around Kent, because that's where the church was, there were churches and schools and youth clubs and, and, you know, Rotary clubs, all sorts of things that booked me in as a speaker to talk about these things. So I just went, I travelled around telling people about what my vision was and beginning youth work as well nationally. I set up projects that operated around the country. I came up with an idea called Christmas Cracker. And Christmas Cracker, we, what I, I wrote about how youth groups around the country from schools and churches could take over empty high street shops for 4 weeks, turn them into restaurants, serve meals that are Indian meals, actually, curries. It was eat less, pay more, that was our slogan. And that people would come, they'd pay as much as they wanted for these meals, and we'd send all of the money to India where Oasis didn't work at that time, it didn't work anywhere, but give it to a charity called Tearfund, and Tearfund would use that to drill wells and for health work in villages. India is really tens and tens of thousands of villages, isn't it?
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Steve Chalke
And a few cities. So this Christmas cracker project took off. I mean, there were hundreds of these things happening around the country, and that gave us more media profile and so it gave me the platform to be able to talk about the fact I want to start a house. Which Cornelia had told me is what we needed to start with, because she said we're too daft to set up a school or a hospital, which was true because she had the same kind of education as me. And so we worked and worked and worked and worked and I wrote to banks and businesses and never got any, any response at all. But in the end, I'll tell you how it happened. Our first hostel, which you've talked about, our first house, one day, a lady who I discovered was a little old lady rang me up and, uh, she said, ‘You don't know me, but my husband and I, we've run a big hostel and, um, we've heard you speaking’. I don't know where they'd heard me speak, ‘And we'd like to give it to you. And if you take it, we give you all the money in our bank account as well’, you know, so I went to see this hostel and, um, I knew it was in the wrong place. It was in a leafy suburb of London and it was beautiful, you know, and it was a beautiful house. But I rang her up, her name's Agnes and I rang up Agnes and I said, ‘Agnes, I've been to see the house and here's the thing’. I said, ‘it's so kind of you, but I can't accept it because we need to start a house in Peckham, uh, because kids need to be in community, not out in the country’. She said, ‘Well, I can't persuade you?’ I said, ‘I wish you could because it's beautiful, but you can't’. So that was the end of the call. About 3 weeks later, she rang me back and she said, ‘I've been talking about it with my husband and we've come to the decision that because you turned us down, you must be the person. So we've decided we're going to sell the house and give you the money to open your hostel wherever you want’. And that's how we got started in Peckham.
Elliot Moss
Final chat coming up with Steve Chalke, and you need him on your team. I need him on my team as well, because then stuff really would motor. That's in just a moment, don't go anywhere.
Steve Chalke's my Business Shape, but not for long and I've got a few things. Firstly, very quickly, I mentioned the Croydon story. You are the 8th most powerful person in Croydon. Steve Parish, chairman of Crystal Palace, is the 7th most. You two meet, you decide that you're going to do something. You've now got this thing, I think it's called the Palace Academy. Is that right?
Steve Chalke
Yes.
Elliot Moss
Just give me the top line on firstly, how did Steve and Steve decide they were going to do something?
Steve Chalke
Well, he was the 7th most powerful man. I was the 8th most powerful man in Croydon. Strange thing about the article, it didn't talk about powerful women and the second thing is I had no power in Croydon at all, though we ran, I was born there and then we, we run about 6 schools.
Elliot Moss
One of their own, Steve.
Steve Chalke
Yeah, and I've always been a Palace supporter and we had a mutual friend who took us both out to a bar one night in London and said, you know, ‘you're the 7th and 8th most popular band in the country, have a conversation’. And out of that has come all sorts of collaborations between Palace and Oasis one way or the other and actually the charity. Palace for Life, every Premier League team has got a charity that sits alongside it. I've become a patron of that besides anything else, but we're working on educational projects, providing education in all schools.
Elliot Moss
All sorts.
Steve Chalke
In all sorts of places, in all sorts of ways.
Elliot Moss
Which brings me to the second of my three before we ask you your song choice, and the second one is, what that says to me is it's a great manifestation of the fact you have ideas, Steve, you make things happen. I guess when you were talking earlier about, oh, they won't notice when the old codger's gone, the challenge to you is, well, of course they will. These ideas, how do you find and nurture talent for people that have ideas and that can make them happen? The faith thing is the big wrapper, and I've got one question around faith, but that's not just the practical CEO roles, that's not just the management teams with their strategies. That's about having zest and passion and creativity. How do you ensure that you can keep finding that and keep harnessing it?
Steve Chalke
Well, for me, you know, I always think I've never had an idea that was unique to me or original to me in my life. I am a great plagiarist, you know, I listen to a lot of people and I listen to a lot of things. I listen to the Radio 4 Today programme every single morning from 6.00 o'clock, you know, and sometimes I'll go back and listen to a bit again that evening because I think I never understood that, I need to know that, etcetera, etcetera. So slowly you put ideas together. It's like bits of jigsaw puzzle, isn't it? And then you have an ‘aha’ moment when you go, if that's true, that's true, that's true, and that's true, I could bring those altogether and we could make this work. So that's, that's very much a part of how my world goes round.
Elliot Moss
And therefore, therefore you try and find people that can also do that.
Steve Chalke
Exactly. And we're across Oasis now we have, we've got some great thinkers and we've got some great, great imaginers. We really have. So I think the world's made up of, isn't it? It's made up of pioneers and settlers. And pioneers go out and they win the new ground, but then they need settlers to make it all work, to build the infrastructure, to do the strategies and the planning and create the systems. What happens is pioneers sometimes despise settlers as, oh, they don't get it, and that's a disaster because a pioneer left on their own would just cause havoc, you know, they'll blow everything up. It's all, everything will explode.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Steve Chalke
But settlers left on their own will build systems and it will all implode. So there has to be a respect between the pioneer and the settler. And you need to, you need to grow both types of people and you need to respect them both, really respect them.
Elliot Moss
That's a really brilliant way of saying it. And finally, just before the song choice. Faith for you has been your North Star, it's been the gift that you were given, as it were. There have been moments, and I, I watched you talking about a hospital, I think in Thailand, where there was abandoned kids, very tough moments when I've seen you, you know, you've been tearful and you said, ‘if there's a God, I really don't like you’. All those things. Has it ever got to the point where you've just said, I've lost my faith? Or has it always, you know, how do you manage that? Because faith is a very, um, what's the word, fragile currency.
Steve Chalke
Yeah, my faith has changed, evolved, grown, etcetera. But, but that's true of us, all of us in life, isn't it? What do we believe now? Is it the same as we believed 5 years ago? Are we expecting to grow and mature any more in the next 5 years? Of course, we're all on a journey, aren't we? And that moment in Thailand, outside Bangkok, where I saw these abandoned kids, hundreds of them, with no hope, no hope. Yeah, I sat in a little Volkswagen van afterwards and I just said, God, you know, I hate you. I hate you. I cannot, don't, in fact, I asked, I said, God, if you're there, let me die, because I can't live knowing these kids have nothing and return to, you know, the safety of my life in the UK. It's just not on, it doesn't make sense. So I don't have a blind faith. And as you say, if it doesn't work, if it doesn't fit, if it doesn't make sense, you best abandon it. So I came to this place very soon in my working life when most of the stuff I'd learnt at theological college, which was like, pile of theories. I had to question the whole lot, because if it doesn't work, I can't live by it. Every day of my life, every hour of my day is shaped by the foundation of my Christian faith. But if it doesn't work, if God is the monster that creates all this poverty, then I've got to walk away from it. So I've been forced on numerous occasions to re-think, to re-plan. I can say, as I've delved deep, I've come to an understanding that God is love and that we are all loved, all of us, of every race, of every religion, every human being is sacred. But it's a battle against the forces around us that persuade us that that isn't true. So that plunges me back into this fight every day. So my faith is as real as it was. In fact, it's probably more grounded and deeper because it's been through the fire.
Elliot Moss
It's been amazing talking to you, Steve. Um, I could do it for hours. Thank you so much. And listen to you for hours, that is. Just before I let you go and continue the fight, the good fight, the best fight, what is your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Steve Chalke
Well, it's Gregory Porter. I love Gregory Porter's music, and he has this wonderful song called Take Me to the Alley, which is based on the words of Jesus, a story that Jesus taught about how we need to be amongst the poorest, amongst the forgotten, amongst those who have no voice. That's our calling. That's our responsibility. We are one human race. So every time I listen to this track, it draws me back to that huge vision that's driven me all the way through these years.
Elliot Moss
Gregory Porter with Take Me to the Alley, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Steve Chalke. He talked about having a master vision, critical in life and in business and in anything where you want to have an impact. Even if you never realise it, your purpose is there, you just need to find it. That's what he said so eloquently, ‘I have a responsibility to do that’. What powers Steve is that sense of it needs to be done. That's what he's here for. I'm a great plagiarist, a brilliant notion for anybody looking to find ideas and for the appreciation, the truth of the fact there is never a bang-on original idea. And finally, that notion of pioneers and settlers, and we've all seen it in different businesses. Both have to be respected, both have their roles, one cannot exist without the other. Great stuff. That's it from Jazz Shapers. Have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds of more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.