Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul and blues. My guest today is Cameron Leslie, co-founder of Fabric, the London nightclub – iconic London nightclub it should say here – and record label. While working as a hospitality and leisure consultant for Deloitte, Cameron supported Keith Reilly, his future co-founder, with his vision for an anti-brand to the big nightclubs of the time. Keith sought a venue with a warehouse mentality, a platform for the unsung heroes of electronic music. In 1999 Cameron and Keith launched Fabric in a former cold storage facility in Farringdon, London, gaining a reputation for experimental, pioneering programming and for nurturing underground artists and scenes. Having steered Fabric out of administration after the collapse of its sister club and having survived the loss of their licence after two tragedies at the club, Cameron and Keith would then face the uncertainties of the Covid pandemic but Fabric, voted Number 1 Club in the World four times – yes, four times – is now 25 years old – who knew – and going strong, with its founders diversifying the brand and celebrating it globally. I’m really pleased we’ve grabbed you, Cameron, I’ve actually, well I’ve been talking about having you on the programme for a while. You didn’t know we were tracking you?
Cameron Leslie
No. I didn’t.
Elliot Moss
No, no, because we…
Cameron Leslie
A bit sinister.
Elliot Moss
We are sinister. Jazz Shapers is an incredibly sinister programme. It’s not something we’ve said before but you’re absolutely right. But Fabric and the world of music, not sinister.
Cameron Leslie
Yes, not sinister at all.
Elliot Moss
No, all about giving people happiness.
Cameron Leslie
Absolutely, that’s what we do so, yes. 25 years of happiness.
Elliot Moss
That’s amazing, I mean, I don’t know how old you are, we’re probably of a similar age, you might be a bit, a few years younger than me.
Cameron Leslie
50 now.
Elliot Moss
50, yeah, a few, just three years, three years separates us, Cameron, and important three years, people thinking, very important. But you know a 25 year old talking about the world of music and a 50 year old…
Cameron Leslie
Yep.
Elliot Moss
Different things.
Cameron Leslie
Totally different, yep, very naïve going into that at that point and probably served, well, I can’t talk for Keith but certainly served me very well at that time, I think, fast-forward to 50 and I was faced with a project like that with no experience, I don’t think I would have done it but yeah, at the time it was um…
Elliot Moss
You don’t know what you don’t know.
Cameron Leslie
Exactly. And you know it was a really, really different time to now anyway in terms of launching something like that and so, I think we benefitted from being able to make, not necessarily mistakes but we were able to create certain things that weren’t necessarily right and it was a lot more of a forgiving time then, certainly in terms of opening a, you know the other venue later on which was in, born into a completely unforgiving time, it allowed us to be able to shape it in a way that you know we meaningfully carried it on for, you know, the next sort of couple of decades so, yeah, it was a great time to be able to launch something so err…
Elliot Moss
And your background and the way you met Keith, you were a, you know you were a stand-up, proper person from the world of consulting.
Cameron Leslie
Proper job, yes.
Elliot Moss
And then you go into the murky, not sinister, we’ve established that but murky world and actually, joking aside, the world of nightclubs anywhere in the world and at university I had a, a night at a nightclub, it was called Stimulus for those people unfortunate enough to be in Leeds around 1991/1990 but music, and I was watching a Man United documentary recently, music and culture and the world that we lived in without social media, without the internet, it was the thing you did to get away and 1999, not dissimilar, now it’s a totally different ballgame in terms of serving up that experience. At that point, did you feel like you were sort of in the middle of something really important culturally versus I’m just running a business?
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, totally. And, you know, we wanted Fabric to be the best on every single level and for someone like me, who came from, who studied hospitality, did a Hospitality Degree, worked at you know 5 star hotels, then was working in consulting for Deloitte, the real, strong appeal, aside from the fact that you know I was a music fan but I didn’t want to go into the music industry, was the fact that we could create a completely new way of running a venue, a venue that was completely different to anything else that was around at that particular time and…
Elliot Moss
And was that just doing things differently, simple as that? Or was it your vision, you and Keith, going ‘we’re going to do it this way because it’s better’?
Cameron Leslie
It wasn’t necessarily doing it differently just to be sort of antagonistic or disrupting, which wasn’t a word back in those days, it was to try and do it as best as we possibly could, whether that was you know the toilet attendants actually weren’t standing over a load of aftershaves and Tic Tacs and you had to put a pound in the pot, they were actually cleaning the toilets and it wasn’t male and female toilets, there was unisex toilets because it was more efficient, you got more cubicles, you know, the cloakroom had airline tickets rather than raffle tickets, you know, these were all just tiny little things that contributed to people forgetting about those things and concentrating on the sound system, the dance floor, the artists that were playing. If you forgot about those operational things, that the security were polite and trained well and did their job properly, you’d forget about them rather than thinking, “I can’t go back to that place because I always lose my coat” or “I can never get a drink” or you know, the music’s great, the sound system is great but you know, it’s such a pain to do it so, you know, we really concentrated on all of those aspects of the service element to make them forgettable and you know, and that for me was like a real, strong pull as, you know, doing something properly where we saw so many people not doing it right and you know we really pushed hard from Day 1 and in terms of you know setting the scene as to what Fabric was going to be about.
Elliot Moss
In 2024, they call the UX, the User Experience, and there it was back in 1999 and Cameron Leslie, my Business Shaper today, was already doing it, there you go, new language for the same thing.
Cameron Leslie is my Business Shaper and he is the co-founder of Fabric. And actually, I should give the other, the other businesses a name, I sort of touched on them before but you’ve got a Web3 social gaming platform which you founded. Are you still involved and co-founder director at…
Cameron Leslie
MIDDAS, yes.
Elliot Moss
MIDDAS.
Cameron Leslie
Correct.
Elliot Moss
And that’s the interior solutions business, which sounds like an extraordinary business to be involved in and has nothing to do with anything else you do.
Cameron Leslie
No.
Elliot Moss
No. How did that happen? And so, just to, I’m going, is this right, UK based, design and manufacturer of modular steel partitioning for commercial industrial spaces? As you do.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, it’s the obvious thing you do after nightclubs.
Elliot Moss
Obviously Cameron, yeah, but is it, was it totally…?
Cameron Leslie
No, it was, it found us. It was a little bit of an antidote, if I have to be honest, after the closure of the venue, the other venue, the big venue, Matter, which we founded down in the O2, and I came out of that and I just decided then I’d probably had enough of opening bricks and mortar spaces at that point and we, myself and my other long-term partner, Gary, we were looking at a few things and he had invested in a similar company about ten years before and the engineers had come to him, or the main engineer had come to him and myself, looking for an exit route out of the company they were in and they wanted to create a start-up and he had a readymade team that was coming there and so, you know, he asked me what I thought and I knew nothing about engineering but they knew everything about that, what they didn’t know was about you know taking a business to market and you know branding it up and the sales channels and all the important things that you needed to get something like that going so, so we backed it, the big factory up in Shropshire and yeah, we’ve been working in advanced manufacturing and vaccines, pharma, life science, healthcare, those kind of specialist…
Elliot Moss
I mean, amazing.
Cameron Leslie
Interiors and…
Elliot Moss
But you’re doing that over there, the night, you’re not, you’re not just a nightclub empresario, in fact this sounds actually it’s more like you’re, you’re the person who makes this stuff work.
Cameron Leslie
Well, I am incredibly lucky that in each of those businesses there are proper specialists, you know, that look after those specialist businesses, you know, it’s certainly not me juggling and running around those, you know, I lend some support and help where it’s required.
Elliot Moss
Is it the same with the Web3 piece as well?
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, exactly the same so…
Elliot Moss
They need you, Cameron, to basically help them understand how to run then grow their business?
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, and there’s a lot of, strangely, there’s a lot of synergy between each of those, as much as they’re in completely different areas.
Elliot Moss
Right so, hold on, we’ve got nightclubs and music and record labels.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, manufacturing, engineering…
Elliot Moss
Manufacturing over there and then we’ve got a technology business.
Cameron Leslie
Web3, correct.
Elliot Moss
And what would you say are the similarities overarching all of them?
Cameron Leslie
You’ve certainly got branding, you’ve got sales principles, you’ve got backing governance and administration, of which you know we take pride in the way that we run our businesses, some of those elements are centralised, some of them are not but you know, there are plenty of individuals that cross over each of those businesses that we use in terms of social media and the way that we go about branding and styling things, even if we don’t necessarily at start-up point, don’t have the assets and the case studies and the background to be able to do it, you can actually create an identity which gives you an immediate presence, which allows you to hopefully fast-track those entities and become players in their own fields so…
Elliot Moss
But there must be a sensibility, like with the music thing, I think it would be impossible for me personally to be involved in something I had absolutely no connection to. So, for you, obviously music plays a role, technology plays a role or is it, is it, or not at all?
Cameron Leslie
No, I don’t, honestly and truly I didn’t go into any of those because I was passionate about gaming or I was suddenly passionate about clean rooms and controlled environments, they’re not, they’re not things that I…
Elliot Moss
Really? You don’t talk about clean rooms and controlled environments?
Cameron Leslie
No, surprisingly, at dinner parties that’s not what…
Elliot Moss
Ah, that’s a real, I’m really missing out. You are missing out on, on that topic.
Cameron Leslie
But I do, I now actually really do enjoy and have become interested in, having learned from specialists about them and being in conversations alongside them and meeting, you know, architects and contractors and end-users that actually, as a, as an engineering business, I find it fascinating and it’s the complete polar opposite from something like Fabric, where you have creatives and it’s a totally different mentality and mindset and, and I just enjoy the sort of polarity of those worlds and the individuals that are in them because they’re all at different phases of their lives, they’ve all got different competing forces on them and they have different individuals involved and, you know, I just can provide a little bit of glue sometimes to those different entities where they’re needed but, as I say, they do have proper specialists that drive them, you know, day in, day out and that’s not me.
Elliot Moss
I’m not going to accuse you of being the person that puts the things together, don’t worry. Much more from my guest coming up soon, that’s Cameron Leslie, he’ll be back in a couple of minutes. Right now though, we’re going to hear a clip from the Mishcon Academy Digital Sessions, which can be found on all the major podcast platforms. MDRx’s CEO, Tom Grogan, talks about Web3, the next iteration of the internet, and what businesses and individuals need to be thinking about when formulating their Web3 strategies and pursuing valuable, impactful projects.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast and you can hear this very programme again if you pop ‘Jazz Shapers’ into your favourite podcast platform, if there is such a thing, and you have an emotional connection with one. My guest today is Cameron Leslie, co-founder of Fabric, the London nightclub and record label too and a whole bunch of other stuff as you’ve been hearing he’s involved in but going back to Fabric, I interviewed James Brown, the founder of Loaded not that long ago and there’s a person who was living and breathing the music scene, you go under the heading of ‘specialist’ to use your accurate language. There must have been though for you, a buzz, even though you weren’t necessarily the person deciding who the roster was going to be of DJs or what the aesthetics might be on one particular night versus another. That period of time before you opened the second club, was it a lot of fun or were you still really consumed in making sure this operation worked more than the fun that you were meant to be having?
Cameron Leslie
Well, it definitely went in phases. The launch was, and I’ll say the launch was kind of the launch year, the first year, was really difficult, we, you know, none of us had any experience of opening anything like that or even opening anything, I was 25 and so while I had hotel and hospitality experience of being involved in hotels, I wasn’t necessarily opening them and launching them from fresh so, it was completely new and there was no manual and you know, we weren’t able to necessarily reference others that were particularly helpful so, we just…
Elliot Moss
And also, just for people that aren’t familiar with the Fabric piece, the size of the venue took how many people?
Cameron Leslie
So, capacity is 2000, close to 2000 but I think more importantly, particularly for those early phases, it was the demand for it, for people that couldn’t get in so, you probably had two to three times capacity outside trying to get in so…
Elliot Moss
How did you manage those crowds?
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, I mean it, from Day 1 it caught us so hard and I think we opened, we had three nights, then we had pause for two and then I, then we had 42 nights on the trot after that. Now, this isn’t a well-oiled machine that you now have the team that you trust and the operations that you know how to respond to something like that so, it was just seat of your pants stuff for quite a while and the team that I had in place, I think my operations manager was sent home sort of Night 4 with mental exhaustion and I sort of carried it for, you know, a couple of months just literally on my own on the operational side and then we started to catch up with ourselves and be able to start bringing in the right people, found sort of a new general manager and the operations manager, you know heads of security, all of these kind of individuals that the launch team then got replaced by a specialist team that we were able to handpick and identify for the business but I would say on a sort of a, you know, perfectionist level it was definitely a full year of finetuning before I kind of was able to look at it and think do you know what, this is, this is now working really, really well. On the fun side, on the public facing side and on the booking and curation side, it just took off from Day 1 and you know, as much as I was talking about being able to find direction that was positive direction on things and being able to make, not necessarily mistakes but you tried things and you think, do you know what, we could do better doing this and then forging those particular sort of directions on you know various sort of, you know, music things like our Fabriclive night on Fridays started as once every six weeks and we were doing things with other promoters, other bookers on those other nights and then we found, do you know what, we’re actually doing this really well so, we flipped it round and did three nights a month as Fabriclive and one external and then ultimately, we flipped that into four every single Friday became Fabriclive so, we were learning about the, our ability to do things really well in our own space and how we wanted to shape it all and have total creative control.
Elliot Moss
But you had to be fast, there was iteration at speed.
Cameron Leslie
Correct. Totally. And it isn’t, sometimes a little bit like a super tanker in that bookings aren’t done one week in advance, you’re doing these six months, eight months in advance so, you know, back then we were probably doing it six, eight weeks in advance a lot closer and tighter but still, you know, you’re still, your turning circle isn’t that tight, it’s a couple of months out so…
Elliot Moss
No. But you do learn, live, when I first started DJing when I was fifteen, you learn a lot when it’s live.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, totally.
Elliot Moss
I mean, more than you do in all sorts of other environments when there’s an audience and stuff’s happening in real time.
Cameron Leslie
And it’s unforgiving as well, you know, if you get it wrong and you can get it, particularly on the operational level, if you get it wrong, you get it really wrong and, you know, then you’re, you know you’ve really got to try and recover that quickly so, a lot of our set up was about not getting things wrong and not ever being in that place that it could fall down and, you know, we’ve had very few of those over the years, considering you know, we put on what’s close to sort of two Glastonburys every year in terms of numbers of people coming into central London so, you know, it’s a, it’s a big operation.
Elliot Moss
Things have gone wrong, you have had crisis, I mentioned it at the beginning of the programme. Hedonism, and again this was part of the culture of it being dark, the lights are off, it’s fun, lots of young people, stuff happens, stuff is consumed. What have you learned personally and professionally about having to deal with that because that is, it’s almost like, you know, it’s like you put music and you put certain forms of life together with other things which aren’t necessarily quite as attractive. How have you managed? I’m being euphemistic here around the world of drugs and things but how have you managed to ensure that people have fun, people are safe?
Cameron Leslie
Well, from Day 1, we’ve always, we’ve run a straight operation and that’s at least the founding core of that and so everything beyond that we’ve had to contend with, those are the challenges that go in and around nighttime economy. Cash less so now but back in the heyday you’d have cash, drink, drugs, sex, people, any combination of those together is quite a potent opportunity to go wrong so, those challenges from Day 1 have been something we’ve had to contend with and you know, we were quite lucky in that, you know, the police and the Met Police when we first opened, we sort of said to them, what sort of venue do you want us to be, do you want us to be completely open and transparent and you know we deal with these challenges together or do we do it like many of the venues around at that time and you know you deal with things behind closed doors, whether that’s meting out justice in a back alley somewhere or flushing things down the toilet and we never did that and we were given, we were given a very positive, collaborative remit with the Met from Day 1 in terms of the way we did things.
Elliot Moss
But you went to talk to them?
Cameron Leslie
And we talked to them and we pioneered you know a lot of things in terms of the way that we would take drugs out of circulation and those would be held and the audit process of handing that over and the destruction of those and you know for a long time we were held up as a real bastion of best practice by them and you know, they would bring problem licensees down to the venue to see how it could be done at scale and, you know, together we actually did, you know, a lot of programmes together so, you were able to ride out the things that come across, you know, in your way that you don’t plan on wanting to see and deal with.
Elliot Moss
Can’t unsee it though.
Cameron Leslie
You can’t unsee it and you have to deal with it and you know, you want to be able to have a partner like the police to be able to make sure that you are able to do that together and…
Elliot Moss
They get a bad rap, I mean generally, don’t they but your, it sounds like your experience with them has been positive.
Cameron Leslie
By and large, by and large, positive.
Elliot Moss
You’re always going to have bad actors, that’s the same, unfortunately it’s, it’s amplified when it’s in, you know, law enforcement parts of the world, parts of the world of business as it were, that learning that you’ve had and it sounds like it’s been quite hard, you talked earlier about, you know, you’ve been the operational person, the person ensuring that the thing works and that you’ve had other specialists but I imagine it was quite emotional when there was a sense that this journey might end, when Fabric was going to be no more, so as much as Cameron’s a cool customer and is going to ensure that the thing works, the machine’s working, the thought of the machine not existing was a bit of a different thing.
Cameron Leslie
Well, weirdly, I’ve become a little bit sort of desensitised to that over the years.
Elliot Moss
Have you?
Cameron Leslie
Strangely, it’s, it’s odd having a business that you’ve always had a feeling could end at some point. I don’t feel that about the others. Anything else I’ve been involved in, I’ve never thought, oh god, that manufacturing business could just finish next week or there’s always existential threats to something like a licenced…
Elliot Moss
Club.
Cameron Leslie
…premises and it’s quite an odd existence and so, there have been times when you’ve been facing that, that we’ve certainly faced that, you know, quite real prospect that, you know, it might not re-open. But I’ve got to say, you know, we’ve always had sort of the very strong belief that we’d be able to get ourselves out of that, fight our way out.
Elliot Moss
It hasn’t exhausted you? You don’t look tired from it?
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, at times it as, you know I…
Elliot Moss
Because that’s a, that’s a, the living on the edge is really good fun, tonnes of adrenaline but actually, it takes, it must take its toll because when the adrenaline suddenly drops off, the night is shut, it’s 4.00 in the morning, you’re going home, wherever it is, like, you know and you go, oh back again.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, I mean, you know and fortunately I don’t do you know the night aspect…
Elliot Moss
No, you obviously don’t do that now.
Cameron Leslie
…anymore but certainly, at the end of phases of those kind of periods, actually, I found the period afterwards to sometimes be a lot harder than the actual period of fighting because I think we sort of realised that we’re real scrappers now when it comes to you know making sure we fight for the existence of our business for the employment of close to 200 people, you know, this is a serious thing for us and we’ve just made sure that each and every time that we’ve been in that position, we’ve, you know, we’ve taken on the best possible people we could, whether that’s licencing solicitors and barristers and legal brains to be able to help us but we’ve also dug deep in terms of our own ability to get ourselves out of those situations. In something like Covid of course, you know, completely beyond, you know, your ability to buy your way out or think your way out or fight your way out of that situation so, you know, it’s not always within your, you know, remit and grasp to be able to get out of those so, you’ve just got to be able to navigate as best as possible to get yourself ultimately, to that place but the after bit, perhaps when you’ve lost momentum or you’ve got to try and get the momentum back up again, that’s sometimes the harder bit because you really have to dig into different reserves to get the team going and to be able to get yourself, you know, into a different place so, yeah, I’ve learned that a few times.
Elliot Moss
The after bit, nicely put. Final chat coming up with Cameron and we’ve also got some Bill Laurance for you here on Jazz FM, that’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.
I’m with Cameron Leslie just for a few minutes and we’ve been talking about 25 quite eventful years and here we are celebrating now and I’m talking about Fabric, the main event for you because obviously that’s been the, that’s been the consistent thread right the way through that period. Now you’re here, we’re after the after bit, there’s some energy in the system and now you’re starting to experiment with this, this brand, Fabric, there’s the label and there’s all these other events that you’re putting on around the country. Is there a sense of pride, Cameron, I mean you strike me as incredibly pragmatic and not someone to sit there and go, “look what I just I did” but is there a moment where you’ve gone, “we’ve survived quite a few scares here, the patient is still alive and actually, the patient is looking quite healthy.” Is that how it is feeling?
Cameron Leslie
As far as good phases go…
Elliot Moss
He’s not… I love this guy, he’s already going well, no, I’m not going to, I’m not going to tell you it’s great.
Cameron Leslie
I don’t want to tempt fate but at the moment, you know, we’re in a really good phase of life and some of the things that are going on, particularly in the 25th year but I would say post-Covid, I was talking about momentum and you know, one of the learnings that we had from the closure in 2016, 2017 re-opening was that we came out quite slowly and re-opened cautiously and when we shut for Covid, one of the real learnings that we had from that previous closure was that when we re-opened and got the green light to do it, we were going to come out the tracks really hard and create that momentum quick and we did that and I think we benefitted in the last couple of years and we’re coming up to what, three years in July since re-opening and we benefitted greatly from that and we also benefitted from a lot of the relationships, new relationships that we built during Covid as a consequence of the Arts Council grant, which we were very lucky to get a very generous one and we established relationships with other London spaces, iconic spaces like Royal Albert Hall, V&A and St Paul’s Cathedral bizarrely and we’ve put events on and done things in these kind of alternative spaces, alternative to somewhere like Fabric, you know, last September for example, we did a first ever contemporary, live music event in St Paul’s Cathedral for 2000 people and it was absolutely amazing to, for the first time in 400 years, you know, you had some form of electronic music being played in there with all the challenges that go in and around the acoustics in a space like that and yeah, it was absolutely brilliant, they took a massive, well, we didn’t feel it was a risk but they took a risk on us and you know, have invited us to come back and do another one this year and, you know, there’s only three shows a year so, to be able to do that a second time this year, which we’re doing in September, it’s those sorts of things that, you know, we’re sort of opening ourselves up to doing alternative cultural spaces that…
Elliot Moss
And being relevant.
Cameron Leslie
And being relevant and, you know, and suddenly, these venues and these spaces are looking at our audience as being relevant and they’re wanting to invite different audiences into these spaces and I think in a post-Covid world, that’s actually a really great thing that’s going on in London now as you’re seeing these kind of cross-pollination of, and culture clashes that previously, pre-Covid, I wouldn’t have imagined could have happened but actually seeing these kind of mix of audiences and you know we’ve got great Museum of London just opening just across the road from us, or London Museum I think they are now…
Elliot Moss
Yeah, London Museum.
Cameron Leslie
I’d better get it right. And, you know, the fantastic space and you know, right on our doorstep and the things that we’re going to be able to potentially do together there, you would never sort of put those two entities together but, you know, they’re fantastic people, they’ve got really great forward vision and you know, it’s these kind of things that we’re looking to sort of do now as we enter our sort of 25th year.
Elliot Moss
And alongside that you’re still excited by the variety that you have, the Web3 stuff, the manufacturing, that all, that works for you personally.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah, definitely interested in, you know, I don’t know where that might lead and I don’t know what other things, you know, might come my way but I definitely don’t want to be, you know, pigeonholed just in sort of one area or sector, I like that variety.
Elliot Moss
There’s not much danger of that happening, Cameron.
Cameron Leslie
No.
Elliot Moss
No, you’d have to, you’d have to sort of get rid of quite a few things before someone put you in a little, wee pigeonhole called That’s what he does’.
Cameron Leslie
Yeah. No, I think I’ve shed that moniker a long time ago so, yeah, I haven’t got to worry about that.
Elliot Moss
It’s been really good talking to you.
Cameron Leslie
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
And good luck in this 25th year for Fabric.
Cameron Leslie
Thanks, Elliot.
Elliot Moss
Good luck with the obvious combination of Web3 and manufacturing, I mean, you know, I mean sorry I didn’t see the connection before, and carry on having fun. Just before I let you go, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Cameron Leslie
So, Azymuth, Morning, great influential band, remixed by a lot of people within the sort of Fabric world, Jazz Nova, Ashley Beedle, we’re lucky enough to have them play ten years ago at the club on special one-off sort of live show, it’s Brazil 1970s, what can you not love about this track, it’s fantastic so, yeah, that’s my choice.
Elliot Moss
The inimitable sound of Azymuth with Morning, the song choice of my Business Shaper, Cameron Leslie. He talked about enabling people to forget about the operational things, specifically in the context of the experience in a nightclub but really think about that more broadly in business. He talked about having proper specialists in his businesses. He works in a lot of things and humbly said, you need those domain experts but boy, is that absolutely true. He talked about the management in the Fabric business being full of real ‘scrappers’, fighting for the existence of the business itself and for the 200 people in it. And finally, that lovely thought about the after bit, when stressful things have happened, when there’s been a phase of heavy duty stuff going on, there will be an impact and just be aware of it coming later because you’re going to need to deal with it. That’s it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.