Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM, however, the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues. My guest today is Emily Lui, one of the two sisters, Annabel being the other one, who are Co-founders of Cutter and Squidge, the bakery and gifting brand. Spending much of their childhood in their parents' Hertfordshire restaurant, learning the art of hospitality, Annabel and Emily developed an appreciation for lovingly handmade food, using natural ingredients. With Annabel building a career in corporate finance and Emily becoming a partner at a London law firm, it was a hunger for a more creative, fulfilling path that led them to bake together, transforming their small kitchen into, as they say, a late-night laboratory. And when their creations, Biskies, a biscuit cookie cake hybrid, sold out at fine food markets and attracted listings with Selfridges and Harrods, the success led to their first permanent store in Soho in 2015. It's a long while ago. The self-funded Cutter and Squidge have since collaborated with Hello Kitty, Downton Abbey, and Freddy's Flowers and have grown into a direct-to-consumer gifting brand, delivering natural bakery treats all across the UK. It's great, great to have you here. You make cakes. You're a lawyer. Explain?
Emily Lui
You know, we grew up in a family food business, restaurants, of course but our dad was a bit different, he's Chinese, but he actually cooked French kind of continental Italian food. So we've just grown up in food. And Annabel and I growing up, we were always the people that if you were having a party, we would bring the cake. Standard. You would expect Emily and Annabel to bring a cake to a party. So we were doing that for a really long time and we both love cooking, we love baking. We just, we are very passionate about food, total foodies and one day Annabel bought me very proudly some cupcakes, which were very substandard and she said, we can do better. And I said, yes, we can, but we are not going make cupcakes because that's done. Let's do something new and inventive.
Elliot Moss
When was this?
Emily Lui
This was in 2013, '14. This is that early, early days of inception. So about 2013.
Elliot Moss
And you are both in proper jobs.
Emily Lui
Yes.
Elliot Moss
As your father and mother would call them, I'm sure.
Emily Lui
Absolutely. We, we followed the instructions to the T.
Elliot Moss
Quite right too.
Emily Lui
Lawyer, and then I'm a lawyer and Annabel was in corporate finance. So, No, not doctors. Slight disappointment there, but…
Elliot Moss
But close.
Emily Lui
Close, close enough, I would say.
Elliot Moss
Conforming to the norm of first-generation Hong Kong Chinese family.
Emily Lui
Absolutely.
Elliot Moss
In a good way.
Emily Lui
In a good way.
Elliot Moss
I say that with, with love and with kindness coming from a Jewish family. It's the same thing.
Emily Lui
It is.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Emily Lui
Annabel had said to my dad, ‘I want to become a pastry chef’, and he said, ‘Over my dead body’.
Elliot Moss
Says the chef.
Emily Lui
Yeah, absolutely. He said, ‘I haven't done all of this for you to become a pastry chef. If you want to have a career, and then retire and become a pastry chef, by all means, but you have to have your career first’.
Elliot Moss
But you're seeing mum and dad both working in the restaurant and utterly committed to putting food on the table, not just for their lovely guests, but obviously for you. So you obviously listened to dad.
Emily Lui
We did. And we…
Elliot Moss
And then what? You didn’t?
Emily Lui
Then we were like, we will never have a restaurant. So we absolutely have never had a restaurant, um, but we just, the passion, for being creative and using food as that creative outlet. It was just too great, it was just, honestly, it was just too great. And we just felt that we had to act on it. And back in 2013, '14, early days, the food industry was just filled with artificial colourings and flavourings, bright blue cakes, rainbow cakes, and nothing really tasted natural and that really upset us. And, you know, 10+ years ago, nobody cared about what they put in their bodies, they really didn't. But now, you know, 10 years on, everyone does. But back then they didn't. But we decided that we were going to be this all-natural bakery. So if something said it was lemon, it wasn't lemon flavouring, it was made with lemon. If it was pineapple, it was made with pineapple. It was just completely logical for us. And that's how we started the business, with an ethos of all-natural and innovative. So we were, I say naive, maybe slightly arrogant in thinking that we could launch a new food product type into the sweet treat market. So instead of doing cupcakes, we created this thing called a Biskie.
Elliot Moss
And that was the first invention, as it were?
Emily Lui
It was the first invention and it's a biscuit cookie cake, because Annabel loves biscuits, cookies, I absolutely adore cake, full stop. That's my go-to. So we were like, what do both of us love? What can we make that both of us would love and that it would be a tactile, enjoyable dessert that wasn't too pretentious, but really tasted and was made of things that we said they were going to, it was going to be made of, you know, fruit basically.
Elliot Moss
So that first, just paint me the picture before we hear from Tito Puente, because he's waiting in the wings. Paint me a picture of that very first biscuit you made that I could have bought.
Emily Lui
It was a chilli pineapple and coconut biscuit. That was the very first flavour.
Elliot Moss
And how big is the biscuit?
Emily Lui
About the size of a tennis ball.
Elliot Moss
So quite, quite a substantial.
Emily Lui
Quite substantial, think sweet burger.
Elliot Moss
Cutter and Squidge is centre stage, Emily Lui is my Business Shaper. She's one of the sisters, that set this business up back in 2013-ish, '13, '14, something like that. Who pushed this? Was it you or was it Annabel?
Emily Lui
It was, I would say it was Annabel because she was very driven for us to do something.
Elliot Moss
Why? Why was she so driven?
Emily Lui
She was in the early parts of her career and she just felt as though her capacity wasn't being used enough by the jobs that she was in. Which is true, she was probably using about 20% of her capacity. She knew she could give more. She was at a stage where she would need to move firms, she was in a crossroads of, do I stay here or do I move firms? And if I move firms, what does my career path look like?
Elliot Moss
And she was at a big firm called KPMG.
Emily Lui
She was.
Elliot Moss
Which many people may, will have heard of.
Emily Lui
May have heard of.
Elliot Moss
So a great place to be in corporate finance.
Emily Lui
Yeah, absolutely.
Elliot Moss
Along with all the other, the other big four companies. But she, so you think she pushed it? Is that a younger sister goading the older sister thing as well? A little bit.
Emily Lui
Absolutely. We are very much, our partnership works because she's 100 miles an hour and I'm grabbing her by the back of her shirt going, yep, before we do that, we need to do X, Y, and Z.
Elliot Moss
Now is that personality type or is that an age thing or is that just the big sister thing? What's going on there? Is it a bit of a combo of the lot?
Emily Lui
It's a combo. I'm 7 years older than her. Obviously I'm a lawyer, so by, you know, I'm cautious by design, or they call me the merchant of doom because I always look at everything that is probably going to go wrong and tell them about it, and they do it anyway.
Elliot Moss
I know many merchants of doom. Mishcon de Reya is a wonderful place full of brilliant lawyers, but it's in the DNA of a lawyer. You've got to be the merchant of doom as well as the merchant of opportunity. You have to look at both, and that's the super skill, I guess. But your dynamic, has it shifted now that you are working together closely?
Emily Lui
No. Actually, it's the same.
Elliot Moss
Emily.
Emily Lui
It really is the same. So she has a position of CEO, which is that head honcho driving position. I am the COO, CCO, commercial officer, I sign all contracts. She's not allowed to because she treats them like autographs, she'll just sign away um.
Elliot Moss
And she's not here to protect herself, by the way.
Emily Lui
She isn't, which is why I'm taking her questions.
Elliot Moss
But I can pipe up, I can say, but Annabel will say, Emily, that's not quite fair.
Emily Lui
She'd agree. Um, so actually, we've both taken very natural roles which suit our skill sets and then the things that are in between that maybe neither of us particularly like to do or neither of us have a particular strength in, we tend to share those responsibilities. So in terms of our personalities, we're very lucky in that we complement each other very well.
Elliot Moss
And what did Mum and Dad think about all this once it had kicked off and once they realised they couldn't, hold the reins to stop the pastry chefs emerging?
Emily Lui
They were very supportive.
Elliot Moss
Were they?
Emily Lui
Yeah, we were a family business. They were very, very supportive.
Elliot Moss
Any good advice?
Emily Lui
Yes, there was very good advice. It was, it was very much sort of, you know, they're entrepreneurs themselves. So my parents never really understood the, okay, you're working how many hours a week and you're getting X amount and that's the bonus that you got at the end of the year. You know, my mum's like, I don't understand this because they are entrepreneurs themselves, they've had multiple businesses. So, you know, what have they taught us? Without saying anything, they've taught us resilience. Absolutely. Our mother's an incredible businesswoman. You’d never, she always gets what she wants. And she…
Elliot Moss
Did mum run the show really? Even if dad thought he did?
Emily Lui
Yeah, I think so. I mean, they're not going to listen to this, so yeah, absolutely, my Mum’s the ship.
Elliot Moss
I'm going make sure they listen to this, Emily. I'm going to actually find their email addresses if they look at email or their mobile numbers and we're going to make sure they listen, they will then, all hell will break loose.
Emily Lui
You know, there was a time where we had this big fridge being moved into our first bakery. It was in, uh, Fulham, and it wouldn't get in the door. And the delivery driver was just going drop it outside and leave it and walk away. And our dad turned to us and said, if your mother was here, she would sort this out. She would have this fridge installed in the bakery without any argument, it would be done. And that kind of upbringing, you know, it's very much tiger mum. You've probably heard a lot about it. Chinese mums are tiger mums, she completely brought us up that way. Why are you crying? Are you hurt? No. Well stop. Crying's not going fix anything.
Elliot Moss
I just, I'm rarely stumped for words, but I think it's probably, I'm thinking my own parents are thinking, Elliot, you've got to get a grip. Much more coming up from my brilliant Business Shaper today, it’ Emily, Emily Lui, and she'll be back in a couple of minutes. But right now, while I'm still thinking about being a tiger parent and realising I've missed my vocation, we're going to hear a taster from the Mishcon Innovation Series, which can be found on all the major podcast platforms. Lydia Kellett invites business founders to share their industry insights and practical advice for those of you thinking about starting your very own thing. In this clip focused on the edtech industry, we hear from Chris Kahler, Co-founder and CEO of Kinnu, a gamified learning app designed to increase the rate of knowledge acquisition.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast. You can hear this very programme again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favourite podcast platform. My guest today is Emily Lui, one of the two sisters who are the Co-founders of Cutter and Squidge, the bakery and gifting brand. The name Cutter and Squidge, one of you squidged and one of you cut? Is that it in a nutshell?
Emily Lui
Absolutely is.
Elliot Moss
Who, which one were you?
Emily Lui
So I'm the squidger.
Elliot Moss
So you literally with your hands, you're squidging.
Emily Lui
So when we created the Biskie, Annabel would cut the biscuit part and I would squidge the buttercream inside with the piping bag, Cutter and Squidge.
Elliot Moss
I love it and when did you decide that was going to be the name? Immediately?
Emily Lui
Early days.
Elliot Moss
Early days.
Emily Lui
We sat down, obviously being ex-corporate, we sat down and we said to each other, what are we building here?
Elliot Moss
Of course you did.
Emily Lui
Yeah. And it was very clinical.
Elliot Moss
What's the market position?
Emily Lui
Absolutely.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Emily Lui
Where are we? What are we doing? So we had, we had a blank piece of paper and we said, what are we building here? Are we building a product, a single product line, a Biskie? Are we building a, a company that is all about us? So the Lui Sisters Bakery, Emily and Annabel's Bakery, or are we building a brand? And we said, actually, we're building a brand. That's what we want to build is a brand.
Elliot Moss
And why that? Because I mean, I would agree that that thesis is probably a good one to follow, but you could argue that Emily and Annabel's is also a brand.
Emily Lui
It is, but it's a personal brand. We wanted to build a brand that would live long after we had anything to do with it, whether, whatever that might be.
Elliot Moss
Why do you think, what was that about? That particular point?
Emily Lui
Legacy.
Elliot Moss
And why legacy? Is that a family thing, do you think?
Emily Lui
Um, I think it was something that we knew we could, we can build something that might end up being bigger than we are. Or something that is bigger than that we could even make it. So we wanted to make sure we had a brand that could encompass lots of different areas, so not just Biskies or cake or blah, blah, blah. We wanted a brand that could encompass a lot of things.
Elliot Moss
And we'll talk about where it's going, because I think there's some other things like flowers and things which are coming along as well. But the, so I love that there was this corporate finance person meets lawyer. They sit there and they plot. They've got a strategic framework. A brand is what? Tick. We've got it. We need a brand. Premium pricing, tick. We need premium pricing because we're going to have to deliver these natural ingredients, they're not going to be cheap. No, so we're going to have to build that in. Okay, so it's got to look great and all that. Your first real break, and I think if I'm right, there were 100 letters that went off to various people saying, please stock us. Is that right?
Emily Lui
Yes, we, back then, the rage was, uh, fine food markets. So you had all the different food markets around London, which a lot of them still exist now. I said, okay, the way to break into this is a food market. Let's do a food market. So one Christmas, Annabel wrote off to one of the 200 different markets, and one person said yes.
Elliot Moss
John Shepherd.
Emily Lui
Yep, Partridges. Um, and he's the, you know, Guild of Fine Foods, Good Taste Awards, etcetera. And he said, ‘Oh, this looks interesting, come and see me’. So off we went with our product and wrapped in a bow. It was our early version of Biskie. It looks different now than it did then and we put it in front of him and he said, ‘Oh, this is interesting. I like the idea of this’. So like, why don't you come and, do a little stall at the Partridge's Market in Sloane Square. And he gave us our first chance. And he's incredible in bringing and truly supporting new people into the market because he didn't charge extortionate pitch fees. I mean, he covered the electricity, that was it with our pitch fee. It was nothing.
Elliot Moss
What do you think he saw? I mean, was he, you know, if everyone else ignored you or either said, no, thank you, why did John say, ‘I like this’?
Emily Lui
I think it was because it was, it tasted good, and it was a new concept. And his markets weren't really about making him money. His focus is promoting good food. That's why I think he took the leap.
Elliot Moss
Product has to be good. That was probably on their chart as well at the beginning of the journey. Don't just, it can't just be a brand with no substance, it's got to have some proper, beautiful tasting, tasting sensations when you, when you eat the Biskies and all the other products, which we're going to hear much more about. Emily Lui is my Business Shaper. She's the Co-founder of Cutter and Squidge. So you get your break. What's it like? You've now set your stall up, go back in time for a moment, and there's people coming up and tasting your wares. What did that feel like in that moment compared to what you'd felt like professionally before?
Emily Lui
Surreal, because it's something that you've created, you've made, people are tasting it, and then they're buying it because they enjoy it. And there's no greater feeling than that, especially if you're a foodie and you cook and you, you know, my love language is food. I love to cook and I love people to enjoy food. There's no greater feeling than that, that something that you've really worked hard at has really hit home, people enjoy it. I mean, it was quite a grounding moment when we started the market. It was freezing.
Elliot Moss
Once a week, was it at that point?
Emily Lui
Once a week on a Saturday.
Elliot Moss
Saturday, yeah.
Emily Lui
On a Saturday. Um, and, uh, rain, hail, snow, blizzards, we were there. Um, it was grounding because it was interesting to actually be face-to-face with people who didn't like the product, and they had no qualms whatsoever to tell you it was disgusting to your face. So that's, yeah, that really brings you down a peg or two um.
Elliot Moss
And did Mum and Dad come along to Wimbledon?
Emily Lui
Oh my God, yeah.
Elliot Moss
Were they there on the first day?
Emily Lui
They were, Dad was integral to the whole thing. We used to call him, um, he was director of logistics and operations because he'd drive us places and he would help us. So if we had two markets on the same day, he would go and do one or the other, the quieter market. Um, so he was completely involved. He was sort of semi-retired at the time, so he had a bit of time on his hands and he was like, ‘I have time. Let's do it. I'll help you girls’.
Elliot Moss
Is he the kind of person that's expressive and that says, ‘Wow, I'm proud of my girls’?
Emily Lui
They're Chinese, full stop. Any Chinese person listening to this will completely understand. There is no, to the external world, I'm sure they tell people that they're proud and that we've done great. But to us, it's, ‘You can do better. You can do better. We can always do better’.
Elliot Moss
And that was there on day one as well?
Emily Lui
Absolutely. Like, you did that wrong, you should have done that better.
Elliot Moss
But you go, that means he loves me.
Emily Lui
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Because he's given me the, I'm in the glare. He's given me the glare, he's given me attention. Um, the beautiful thing then happens is, of course, Harrods and Selfridges pop up and they say, hey, we'd love to have you and then ripples dissolve, they say, we don't want you anymore and suddenly you go from the highs, the highs of a new business to the lows of the reality of a new business. Tell me how you then bounce back from that and decide, hold on a minute, there's not much money left in the bank, um, what do we do now? Where, what's the, what's the thought process in that moment when suddenly the adversity hits?
Emily Lui
The thought process, once you've got over the shock of having a business, employees, premises, and no income, is, well, number one, we have employees and they've trusted us with their livelihood. So what can we do? You know, what can we do to repay that trust? And number two is like, is it time to give up? And I think a lot about becoming an entrepreneur is being able to push away the fears and just go for it and just say, do you know what? Let's just see what's going to happen. Win or lose, we'll learn a lesson. And it was at that moment when we said, okay, win or lose, are we ready to give up? No, we're not. We still believe in our brand. We still believe in our business. How are we going to make it work? Our solution was take every last penny that we had in the bank account and throw it at a pop-up shop and see if that was the way that our business should be for it to then actually be successful, sustainably successful.
Elliot Moss
And the market responded by saying?
Emily Lui
Hell yeah.
Elliot Moss
Hell yeah. Final chat coming up with my guest today, it's Emily Lui, and we've got some Kokoroko for you too. That's in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.
Emily Lui is my Business Shaper, she's Co-founder of Cutter and Squidge. They're the people who have brought me today some cheesecake brownie. What are they? They're cheesecake brownies, right?
Emily Lui
They are.
Elliot Moss
And what's the taste sensation in them?
Emily Lui
Heaven.
Elliot Moss
That's easy, because you are in the business of joy, which is what it says on your website so it must be true. But I like that idea. It's so simple. So we were talking about resilience and talking about bouncing back and that thought process and all of that. You had some shops, they went down. You've still got the one shop. You're now looking at expanding the business. You're here, you're very much here. Things are going the right way. Are you happy? Even if your parents have said not good enough. Are you tough on yourself, Emily, in the way that your parents are?
Emily Lui
We're incredibly tough on ourselves. We can always do better. What did we do wrong? Where are the lessons? And sometimes because you're in the weeds, you don't always take a step back and look at what you have achieved because we're always thinking about what can we do better? How can we do it better? How can we serve our customers better? What can we give them that they don't know they need yet, but they do definitely want it from us.
Elliot Moss
The 5-second rule I loved. I think I read something about within 5 seconds your customers have to be greeted. Is that right?
Emily Lui
In the store.
Elliot Moss
In the store.
Emily Lui
Absolutely.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Emily Lui
Absolutely.
Elliot Moss
I mean, that's quite, that’s quite rapid.
Emily Lui
It is, but there's nothing worse than walking into a store and being ignored.
Elliot Moss
Yeah. So even if they're super busy serving, you go, hello, lovely to see you. Welcome. Have a look.
Emily Lui
Exactly.
Elliot Moss
Simple stuff. The hard work ethic is what I want to come back to because obviously this is very much an immigrant story generally, not just specific to the Lui’s. Is that more important in a way than the creativity that you sought in doing your own thing, do you think, for you personally?
Emily Lui
Is it more intrinsic to being successful? Is that the question?
Elliot Moss
Yeah. And is it, and what gives you happiness? Is it the creativity, or is it the results of the hard work?
Emily Lui
It's both. The creativity is, you know, being creative is fun. It's the fun part of the job. The execution is the hard part of the job, and then the results at the end give you the joy that everything that you've put in, your creative efforts, your hard graft on the execution, have actually resulted in something successful that a lot of people have enjoyed. So it's a whole process that you have to enjoy. The middle bit is the least enjoyable bit, which is the execution.
Elliot Moss
And do you take a moment at the end to enjoy the joy, you personally?
Emily Lui
Generally not, because we're always thinking about the next occasion. We're, you know, we're now this occasion, we're an occasions business so we cater to all the different occasions that different demographics have, as well as anniversaries, birthdays, Mother's Day. We're doing everything. So we actually just kind of roll from one to the other and I think one of the criticisms that I would say that we probably have of ourselves is that we don't take an opportunity to step back and look at what we've achieved.
Elliot Moss
I can imagine you don't, and that's why I guess I'm asking the question but is, does Annabel ever say to you, Emily, can we just stop for 5 seconds say, do you know what, we're doing an okay job?
Emily Lui
No, absolutely not.
Elliot Moss
Never.
Emily Lui
She's worse than me.
Elliot Moss
Is she?
Emily Lui
No, absolutely. She's more driven. She's corporate finance, you know, there's no stopping.
Elliot Moss
And in terms of that, when the family are together, when you are together and you're, quote unquote, not working, do you have a chance to talk about things that aren't work?
Emily Lui
All the time. And you know, my husband said to me, what do you two talk about all the time? Well, we bounce between, you know, family things, her kids, the dogs, the wider family and the business. It just, it all just melds. And we're lucky because, you know, we are best friends and we continue to be able to be best friends as well.
Elliot Moss
So this hasn't affected, because often people say, you know, family businesses, and I've seen it with lots of families that it creates problems if things aren't going so well. How are you going to ensure that it doesn't create a problem in your family? Do you think that's just an impossible, you know, because again, lawyers, the lawyer in you would say, well, you've got to think about what could go wrong. That's the nature of being a lawyer. Have you thought about that?
Emily Lui
We have come from a family of entrepreneurs, so it's ingrained in us that at dinner table, which my husband's actually said this, he's observed where we have this very heated family business conversation at the dinner table and then we're like, okay, who wants dessert? Are you having this? Are you having that? You know, there's, we don't take it personally and it's not personal and it's not about ego and you do have to put ego aside when it comes to the greater good of a business.
Elliot Moss
And a difficult question before I let you go and ask or even before I let you go, I'm going to ask you your song choice. Don't worry, I'm not going to forget that bit. But in terms of the duality of Emily the lawyer and Emily the entrepreneur, where might this end? Where might it land up, do you think?
Emily Lui
Time will tell.
Elliot Moss
Such a lawyerly answer, you just don't know, it could be this, it could be that. I'm only giving you the options.
Emily Lui
I mean, I could be on TV.
Elliot Moss
You could be.
Emily Lui
It could be my third career.
Elliot Moss
It's been really nice chatting to you. Um and I shall we quickly add, before I just ask you to do your song choice, you've got plans. This business is diversifying, but tightly, I imagine. You've still got a clear proposition from that original whiteboard.
Emily Lui
Absolutely. So we didn't think our business would be a direct-to-consumer nationwide brand that it is now. That was a creation of what we, what we managed to put together during COVID and beyond. And we did never imagine that this would be the business now. So for us, it's harnessing that, growing it, and growing what we do as a business, what we're offering to our customers, and what they want from us.
Elliot Moss
Give me one example of what they'll be getting or are getting now.
Emily Lui
They want more hampers and they want more curated joyful moments. So that could be with flowers, um, with hampers, with large cakes sent to their door up in Scotland from London, but perfectly.
Elliot Moss
Good luck. May the force be with you. Just before I let you go, what is your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Emily Lui
Ella Fitzgerald, Every Time We Say Goodbye. It was a song that was on repeat in our parents' restaurant and so every time I hear it, I just think about working in the restaurant with Mum and Dad.
Elliot Moss
Ella Fitzgerald there with Every Time We Say Goodbye, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Emily Lui. She talked about building something bigger than themselves, this idea that there will be legacy long after they have gone in the business called Cutter and Squidge. She talked about her joy being the joy that she sees in other people as they eat their products. And finally, that phrase, it wasn't time to stop, the conversation between Emily and Annabel's founders when they were faced with a really difficult moment and they decided to invest their last savings in opening a shop. Fantastic stuff. That's it from Jazz Shapers. Have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds of more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.