Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz FM, however, the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the Shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues. My guest today is Abigail Tan, CEO of St Giles Hotel Group and Founder of the Hotels with Heart Foundation, a charity giving back to local communities. Born in Penang, Malaysia, with hospitality in her family for 3 generations, her grandfather and his brother ran one of Malaysia's real estate dynasties, Abigail's childhood obsession with hotels and how they work led her to walk the corridors, spying on housekeepers and their trolleys and asking constant questions of the back office staff. Joining the family business during summer breaks from school as an apprentice, in 2014, Abigail became St Giles' Hotel’s Head of UK, Europe and North America, and later CEO. Housing rough sleepers in St Giles' London Hotel during the COVID pandemic was the spark for Abigail to launch Hotels with Heart in 2023. Among other works supporting the local community, the charity has since launched the St Giles Hospitality Academy, aiming to empower and uplift marginalised people through training across every department in the hotel and support critically with finding employment. It's fabulous to have you here, thank you.
Abigail Tan
Thank you so much, Elliot, it's really a real pleasure and honour to be here. Thanks for having me in the studio.
Elliot Moss
So hotels, we grow up as kids and we love different things. What was it about the hotels that grabbed you and that you said, this is going to be where I live, literally?
Abigail Tan
You know, one of my earliest memories, um, have been going to, growing up in Penang, um, there was a, there is a resort called the Shangri-La by the beach and we used to go there maybe one weekend a month, uh, for a weekend stay. And I just remember walking into the hotel, taking a deep breath in and just exclaiming, hotel! And I just…
Elliot Moss
How old were you?
Abigail Tan
I think it started from probably about 6 years old.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Abigail Tan
Yeah. And I just loved, I just loved the smell of the hotel.
Elliot Moss
What does it smell like? What did it smell like? Because I think smell is one of the strongest senses known to humans.
Abigail Tan
Yeah, it was like really woody, um, fresh and I think it was just a mixture of one being on holiday and being in this whole different world. And my parents used to say the hardest part about getting me, um, into the hotel was getting me out of the hotel. So in order for me to leave, they'd have to say we were going to another hotel. And then I'd be okay. And then I'd see the gates to our house when we got home and I'm like, ‘You lied to me!’
Elliot Moss
And then this sense of you, I can just visualise you wandering around the hotels and looking at everything going on behind the scenes, behind the curtains. When did that begin?
Abigail Tan
I think it began quite soon after that when I started, uh, learning about the games that they had back there. So, you know, it'd be a beautiful day outside, instead of playing outside, I'd be at the front desk pestering them like, ‘What are you doing and why?’ Lots of whys, you know, at that age.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, yeah.
Abigail Tan
Um, trying to see like, ‘What games do you have back there? Can I go back there in the back office and see what you have?’ Um, just spending a lot of time, I think, being really curious about what happens in that back office world that makes all the magic happen in front, the front end for us.
Elliot Moss
And the family was involved in property, is that right?
Abigail Tan
Yes.
Elliot Moss
And, and then hotels as well at that point. When did that begin for the family?
Abigail Tan
Uh, it began about 30 years ago. So it started as a, as a smaller investment, I think, or project with, um, the owners of the Shangri-La at the time, and then just branched out into our own separate brands.
Elliot Moss
And nice, and again, did you remember when the family made the decision to go into hotels?
Abigail Tan
I don't, I think I was too young. But I remember, uh, part of the passion starting when I would go to construction sites with my father and just seeing how, um, the one I remember vividly was the Citytel Penang when that was being built. It was on a very, very thin site and so the pilings, I had just seeing the pilings go in, I was like, wow, because it's so, it was so amazing to me how something could go from nothing to some steel and some, a lot of dust to a hotel, to a living, breathing machine.
Elliot Moss
And do you think, just very briefly, do you think watching something being built from scratch, was that a thing to you? Did you think, I want to build things as well, or was it not quite as literal as that?
Abigail Tan
I think some of it, because then even now I love seeing how things get put together. Like, you know, if we're looking at this can of water, like, how, how does this aluminium bend like this? I used to love, there was a book, there was a magazine called How It Works.
Elliot Moss
How Things Work.
Abigail Tan
How Things Work.
Elliot Moss
Yeah, I remember.
Abigail Tan
Used to read it all the time.
Elliot Moss
Me too.
Abigail Tan
Like even just paintbrushes, like how they work.
Elliot Moss
I remember dialysis machines and osmosis and things, crazy things. I went, ah, that's how it works. So you're one of those, you like to know how things work.
Abigail Tan
I do. Like, I don't think I'm quite as obsessive about it anymore otherwise my brain would just…
Elliot Moss
It would explode. Don't let it explode. Don't, please don't explode for a while because you're going to be with me for a little bit longer. Abigail Tan is my Business Shaper, she's the CEO of the St Giles Hotel Group. You recently sold your, your hotel in London.
Abigail Tan
We did.
Elliot Moss
How does that feel?
Abigail Tan
Uh, it was a little soul-crushing when it happened or during the entire process. But, um, now I think, I think with everything in life, you know, we, we adapt, we move on, we grieve. And I'm very proud of the way we left, um, I left my tenure with the team. I miss them tremendously, uh.
Elliot Moss
Is it grief? Is there a bit of grief?
Abigail Tan
Of course there is, because they were like family to me. And even, you know, on the day I left, I said, ‘you all are still family’. And anytime they need anything, they're welcome to reach out. But I've been there, I've been there 16 years reshaping the culture, uh, building an entire management team from scratch, and trying to change the, the organisational behaviour. And I was so proud of what we built there, um, I think everyone could feel it. Other, other consultants or professionals who've come into our environment, they say, you know, they've been to so many other hotel groups and they've never seen a culture like this. And so I was so proud of what we had there.
Elliot Moss
Let me ask you a couple of things that quickly spring to mind. The adapting part, the Abigail who's the adapter, do you think that's the immigrant thing? Do you think that's the being not at home where you were for 18 years in Malaysia? Is that just the sense of I'm in a new place, but I quite like being in a new place, and I'm just going to work this out. Is that what it is?
Abigail Tan
It's an interesting question because I've never thought of myself as, I've never had my identity as an immigrant. I've just been…
Elliot Moss
You're just Malaysian and you're here.
Abigail Tan
Exactly. I'm just a person somewhere, just, you know, trying to be who I am. Um, I think the adapting has just come out of years of, uh, trying to figure out who I am as a leader, as a person, just a lot of life experience. Um, like I said, going through various loss and change, and especially being in hospitality where you are forced to adapt quickly, otherwise, otherwise you get left behind. So I think, um, I wouldn't say I'm a pro at it.
Elliot Moss
No.
Abigail Tan
We never are but I've definitely learned how to deal with, um, with having to adapt to changes quickly.
Elliot Moss
So talking about adaptation, what's the main thing that you've had to change about yourself in terms of the way you're now a leader, the way you now behave as a leader?
Abigail Tan
These are very deep questions for a morning show, Elliot. Um, luckily, I have some tissues in front of me. Uh, definitely adapting as a leader and as a young leader, you know, when I started out with my position, I was 24, 24 years old.
Elliot Moss
Wow.
Abigail Tan
And trying to navigate a world where of various office politics, um, trying to find my place as to where I fit in with this team, but also how I can be true to myself and so, um, a lot of my journey has been influenced by amazing coaches who've taught me how to, uh, listen to my intuition, listen to my boundaries, and set my boundaries and how to use them better. It's taken a lot of years for me to get there. Uh, but I think just knowing who I am and who I want to be as a leader and what my values are have helped to shape, um, how I adapt to various scenarios.
Elliot Moss
So your own personal roadmap in a way.
Abigail Tan
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
And in terms of all the values, because everyone, we all think, you know, I think a lot about what are my values. What's your number one most important value when you think about how you want to lead your life?
Abigail Tan
Uh, I think with integrity and with honesty and, and, you know, the most important thing to me is family. So I say even at work and at home, we function as a family. At work, I say, you know, we spend more time with each other than we do our own families, most of it, especially in hospitality. So we can fight, we can play, we can laugh, we can love each other as family but at the end of the day, you all have the same goal to be harmonious. Well we try.
Elliot Moss
To be harmonious and I want to talk about family in a bit. Much more from my guest Abigail Tan coming up in a couple of minutes.
You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very programme again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your podcast platform of choice. My guest today is Abigail Tan, CEO of St Giles Hotel Group and Founder of the Hotels with Heart Foundation, a charity giving back to local communities. You talked about integrity, um, and you talked about family, and, and when I was, um, doing my usual research into the wonderful people that I get the privilege of meeting and spending some time with, family was absolutely zinging everywhere. It was popping, uh, in terms of you and where you sit, popping out massively. I was actually thinking lots of versions of family, or your, your own children coming at some point soon, your parents, grandparents, as is the heritage of, of that, of the family over there, and then the family that you talk about creating in, in the work environment. I also thought about responsibility, because what comes often in the, the clichéd Asian family is this sense of responsibility to the bigger thing called the family and humility. Just tell me a little bit about how responsibility and humility were for you as growing up in that family? What did it mean? How was that inculcated?
Abigail Tan
We continue with all these very…
Elliot Moss
I can't help it, Abigail, I'm drawn.
Abigail Tan
My goodness. It’s like therapy.
Elliot Moss
I know, I'm just like this pseudo-existential guy. I know, the therapy's free. It's okay. You don't have to pay for this, I'm not asking for cash. It's fine, we'll do that afterwards. So, but, but, but tell me, what, where did it sit? Was it, was it right there from the very beginning? You are part of this family, it means something.
Abigail Tan
It definitely has been since a very young age. It's what I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to deconstruct. Um, being, being the middle child of 5, the third of 5, I think growing up, I felt a lot of responsibility for my younger siblings to, to, to help take care of them. And as well as a, and I remember this quite clearly, a responsibility for my 2 older sisters to try and help them get along better. This was when we were younger. Uh, and so from a young age, it was just, I think I found my position in the family as the one, as the clown to make everyone laugh, but also the one to try and hold it together between the siblings.
Elliot Moss
You're the harmoniser.
Abigail Tan
Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because my siblings and I, we did a, um, this kind of workshop on, on who we are within the family and what our roles are and all of them chose my role as the head of HR.
Elliot Moss
We don't have to tell, you don't have to tell me what they were, but how did that happen? Why did you think that became the truth?
Abigail Tan
I think it's because I've been the more, I'm the more sensitive one out of all of them. So I feel, uh, their, their emotions or their states more than, uh, than what they feel.
Elliot Moss
So you're outwardly, you're like the barometer in the room and you can see what the weather's what the weather is and you're measuring it the whole time.
Abigail Tan
Yes, and it affects me because part of my being and maybe why hospitality suits me is that I want everyone to be happy so.
Elliot Moss
Yeah. Which is a fabulous driver, by the way, as much as it's exhausting. And I think I read you wrote somewhere that you were the kind of the, the private introvert or the kind of the person that, you know, you look like an extrovert, but actually, oh Lord, this is exhausting. Just leave me alone. I now need to recover from all this harmony I'm bringing to the world. It's taking it out of me, right?
Abigail Tan
It is like that.
Elliot Moss
But that rings true for a lot of people, I think.
Abigail Tan
Yeah, yeah. And someone said to me the other day, there's actually a term for it now, it's called an ambivert.
Elliot Moss
Ah.
Abigail Tan
Which describes exactly that.
Elliot Moss
Okay. And in terms of then taking that into the work environment, I mean, that's Nirvana, the CEO who's really in tune with all these emotions, massive part of bringing out capability is in fact understanding people's emotional state.
Abigail Tan
Yes and I think that has what has helped me build a strong leadership team that, that I'm really proud of because to me, hospitality isn't just about and leadership isn't just about, uh, someone leading someone, someone giving orders from the top. It's about understanding what drives people. What are their motivations? Uh, what is their state in the day? Because we can't all, um, be expected to show up at work perfectly happy. And so it's about understanding each other's, like, how are you doing? So sometimes we would start meetings going, okay, one word. Uh, just talk to me about your mental, emotional, physical state right now. And so around the room, we understand, okay, you're a bit tired today, you're a little bit anxious, you're a bit upset. So it just builds a lot of empathy between us. And that's what I think helps to create understanding within the team.
Elliot Moss
You talk about family, we've talked a bit about that. I wanted to talk about Uncle Steve, and you say there have been people that are important in my life, and Uncle Steve is the person in your life that seems to be a very important mentor. Was he actually an uncle? Or was he just part of the, was he part of the team?
Abigail Tan
He was part of the team. So he was, I guess, our hired COO at the time.
Elliot Moss
Yes. But he was essentially someone that brought you, that was your mentor in the business, that basically showed you the ropes, but as you said, gave you lots of freedom as well.
Abigail Tan
Yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
What did you, what do you remember about his approach that you now have passed on or kept and passed on to all the people that you oversee or have overseen?
Abigail Tan
I think one of the things, one of the qualities of him that really stood out was that, uh, he would let everyone have a voice and be able to share an opinion, whether he would listen to them or not. Um, but he would make people feel important. And that I realised when I, when I was his apprentice, that what a quality that was. Um, also, just, I think, his love for my family and his love for his family and how I saw him interacting with various people in the hotel shaped how I thought organisations should run and a hotel should run.
Elliot Moss
Mm. And how did he manifest that? Because, you know, we all know when we see someone being loving in a work environment kind and generous. We all know it when we see it, but give me an example of what you saw, what he did.
Abigail Tan
I think one of the things that stood out was that he knew everybody by name. So even if you are the dishwasher or a housekeeper, he would know everyone by name and every day he would go and walk around the hotel and just to see, you know, what was going on, speak with the housekeepers, uh, find out what were their issues, um, listen to them.
Elliot Moss
And that impact, just thinking about impact more broadly, that impact it had on you and on other people, you then obviously become, you know, one of the key drivers of the Hotels with Heart Foundation. And then within COVID as well, there was this whole moment where you said to Camden and to Westminster Council, I have rooms, there are homeless people, this is dangerous, how can I help? What can we do? And homeless people become, you know, they get a home. Tell me can you trace back that kind of philanthropic kindness to some of the things that Uncle Steve taught you?
Abigail Tan
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Is that too much of a stretch?
Abigail Tan
No, no, no, no, it's not. Um, I'm just trying to find the connection.
Elliot Moss
Or to the family, I'm wondering where that giving back came from. Was that part of, again, the family system that you grew up in as much as Uncle Steve?
Abigail Tan
Uh, the family have always been generous, but I think the, the idea for Hotels of Heart really started more from not just an idea of giving back, but how we could drive purpose and meaning into the, into the culture of our team. And it was actually, I know it officially started during COVID but then the idea I had really started more in like 2013, 2014, when that name Hotels of Heart, because I said, look, we have this big hotel occupying an island site. We impact so many people around us and we can impact, we can have more positive impact.
Elliot Moss
And why was that important to you?
Abigail Tan
Uh, because I felt that one, internally is good for the hotel as an organisation to have a purpose, it is good to give staff a purpose, and it's also important that we are not just a business here. We're serving the community. We are serving a wider goal of helping people. Because, um, what I say also is that through the work we do is about building the hoteliers of the future. How can we, uh, help someone who is maybe, uh, struggling to find work or struggling with direction and show them the wonderful world of hospitality. And they say, ‘I love this’, and see them going from a dishwasher to being a manager to being a general manager one day. There's, there’s something about that that's just really inspiring.
Elliot Moss
I'm going to pick up on this, I want to know more. Stay with me for my final chat with my guest, that's Abigail Tan. And we've got some Candi Staton coming up for you, very shortly. That's in just a moment.
Abigail Tan is my Business Shaper, not for very much longer though. No, you're going to be, you're going to be whistled off somewhere, um, but just before you do, I want to talk about inspiration and that, and that ability to change lives. So yes, you've got this idea in your head, the Hotels with Heart Foundation, the hospitality academy that you've created is, as I understand it, helping a, a marginalised person, someone who's not got all the benefits that many people do have, to have the chance to train and to see the light and to be able to go from nothing to washer to head of whatever it might be. Why does that give you joy and energy? Because obviously, listen, it gives all of us joy and energy to see someone not having an opportunity have one. But why you, Abigail, and how have you managed to pull this thing off?
Abigail Tan
It brings me, uh, gives me joy and energy because the idea or the fact that through work that I've done, um, and my team have done, that we are able to impact the life, positively impact the life and help somebody who otherwise may, um, fall through the cracks. Um, there's something so powerful about seeing somebody flourish, uh, and building a life for themselves. And, and I really believe it's what we are here on this earth for. I feel it's what my purpose is also, it's just to help people and, and it's not, uh, I don't think it's speaking about it from a really egotistical place. It just fills me with a lot of joy, even if we don't talk about it, but seeing someone flourish, seeing someone who couldn't get a job because they didn't have enough experience or they'd previously been homeless or they'd been in jail, they didn't have education.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Abigail Tan
And I say, you know, one thing that I always say in interviews is that personality you cannot teach, values you cannot teach. Everything else in hotels you can teach. It's easy. So if you have the right mentality and if you have the right support, I think it's so important. And I think about me, if I hadn't received the support that that I had from Uncle Steve, from my family, from my team, um, I wouldn't be able to, to be the leader I am and the leader I'm trying to be. I wouldn't have the freedom to think about how to be that leader.
Elliot Moss
And is the next chapter creating other leaders that can go off and then spread that joy and that focus on the dignity that you can give somebody who finds themselves in a role, the joy that you, you know, the self-belief and all that? Is that where this goes next?
Abigail Tan
Yes. It definitely is, because I always say, uh, the St Giles Wells shouldn't be Abigail. It should live far, far, far generations past me because, uh, how do we create the next leaders who can bring the values and the culture that we shape now into the future, continue to do, to do good or to, um, yeah, be an organisation that we're proud of. And generations and years from now, when I'm looking down, I'll be really proud.
Elliot Moss
And how do you ensure that happens? Because people talk about a thousand-year view of life and it's again, it's a kind of an Eastern view of the world or an Asian view of the world, which I love. How does that happen in real, just really shortly, but in practical terms?
Abigail Tan
Uh, for me, it's about, um, I think, stewardship and ownership over the, over the business, uh, finding those people who, who really embody the culture and the values that we're trying to build and build them up and support them through it and show them how they are important, why the work that they do, um, is important. And just continuing to, to find these little, uh, I guess, nuggets of joy in people, finding out what makes you happy about your job, how about doing your job, what are you good at, what makes you wake up in the morning to come to work, and using that as a way to, uh, lift them up into the positions that people need to be in. Because I say sometimes we go into a job for the sake of having a job, which a lot of people have to, uh, but it doesn't mean that you cannot thrive, uh, within that organisation. I say there's nowhere more beautiful than hotels to do that because you can do anything in the hotel. You can, you can go from housekeeping, you can learn finance, you can learn human resources, uh, and that's, that’s really beautiful. So, um, I think continuing to find who are the talent who can drive forward and continue to teach them because, you know, in 20 years, 30 years, I might retire, who knows. And it's who can you trust to be the steward or the guardian of the business moving forward. And young people are so important.
Elliot Moss
And I love, and I love that. Are you still the small girl, age 6, walking around that hotel smelling the wood and feeling the freshness of the air? Is that still the thing that excites you?
Abigail Tan
I definitely am. Uh, just an example, I was at an Intuition Leadership Retreat, um, 2 weeks ago, and I walked into this hotel, beautiful 13 bedroom small boutique hotel, and I was like, oh, I like this. I bought the diffusers, of course, they had the diffusers, I had to buy them. They were too expensive, but it's now in my home because I walk in and the minute I smell it, well, right now I don't smell much because of the sinusitis, but, um, the minute I walk into my home, it reminds me of the time that I had at that retreat. And I walk into a hotel and I immediately feel, I do feel like a little girl again because I just get excited, especially if it's a nice hotel. You know, I think the first 3 seconds, like when you meet someone, the first 7 seconds are the crucial ones. For me, a hotel, the first 7 seconds are also crucial. If it doesn't smell good.
Elliot Moss
Keep away.
Abigail Tan
Yes.
Elliot Moss
It's been brilliant talking to you, Abigail.
Abigail Tan
Thank you so much.
Elliot Moss
And thank you for spending some time with us. Enjoy being a mum, I know you do, but is also what I've loved is the small girl Abigail who's still there, which I hope is all, you know, that for me is a massive point about being joyful about the thing that you do, and you sound like you found the thing that you do, and that's a good place to be. Just before I let you go, what's your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Abigail Tan
Uh, my song choice is Crossroads by Robert Johnson. I chose it because when I was in, doing my IB in Penang, um…
Elliot Moss
International Baccalaureate.
Abigail Tan
…International Baccalaureate, uh, and doing the music course, we were asked to choose a piece. And back then I was also playing a lot of electric guitar and a lot of blues and so I chose that song, which is actually, we had to deconstruct the entire thing, um, as part of our music course. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do but I just remember being able, like buying so many books trying to, trying to study it. And so it just brings back a lot of memories of school, maybe going back to being young again.
Elliot Moss
Robert Johnson with Crossroads, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Abigail Tan. She talked about a leadership style that puts the drive behind how people behave primary in her mind when she's thinking about how she leads a team. She talks about the importance of making people feel important and listened to, which I absolutely love. And finally, a brilliant mindset, which is about long-term sustainable stewardship of a business. It's not about tomorrow. It's about the next 10 years, the next 50 years, and indeed the next 500 years. That's it from Jazz Shapers. Have a lovely weekend.
We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You’ll find hundreds of more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more just search ‘Jazz Shapers’ in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.