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Welcome to the Jazz Shapers Podcast from Mishcon de Reya. What you are about to hear was originally broadcast on JazzFM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.
Elliot Moss
Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues. My guest today, I'm extremely pleased to say, is Sam McKnight, MBE, influential hairstylist and founder of his own brand of products, Hair by Sam McKnight. Brought up in a mining community in the south of Scotland, Sam’s love of fashion and lack of love for his teacher training college lead him to work in a local salon and then, as he says, to blag a job in Molton Brown, the London salon of course where the magazines sought the hairdressers for their shoots. Working for Vogue in the 1970’s and growing with an industry shaped by the supermodel phenomenon, Sam crafted iconic hairstyles for non other than Princess Diana, Kate Moss, Lady Gaga, Naomi Campbell and Sienna Miller amongst many, many others. And through collaborations with major fashion houses and photographers, Sam has over 200 magazine covers to his name. And in 2017 he launched his own brand of products, Hair by Sam McKnight, rooted in his ethos that everyone should feel great about their hair and have the tools and the confidence to make the most of it.
How did we get here Sam? Did you think when you were the kid at 15 that you’d be talking about your life looking back and saying, yeah I was the person that set up my own business, I was the person that made room for beautiful…
Sam McKnight
No not at 15 years old, at 25 years old I wouldn’t have thought that either you know. I was probably a late, a late bloomer.
Elliot Moss
Where did the love of you know, why did you want to blag a job in Molton Brown. Where did that come from?
Sam McKnight
You know it’s hard to imagine, what was that, 50 years ago really when I came to London how depressed and kind of run down London was really, I mean it was coming out of, we were still coming out of the post-War era. We had 3 day week, we had 3 days without electricity, shops were lit by candle light. It was a, it was a dark place. Much, much darker than now and but that old sort of saying that there were only 200 people who were in that kind of zeitgeist to the 60’s in London because it feels like from the pictures that the whole of London was going through, in fact it was…
Elliot Moss
Everyone was dancing in the streets.
Sam McKnight
Yeah. Some people were but it, it wasn’t all like that and the 70’s were still like that and so I arrived in London mid-70’s, you know, to stores like Beba and things like that which were kind of these sort of beacons of rarefied sort of fashion. Although it was high street, it was for the masses but it wasn’t the scale that it is, that the fashion and sort of how our world is now because now it’s sort of, there’s fashion, music, style. I think style was an unheard of word then you know, so it was, it was pretty bleak London but there were these beacons like South Molton Street had kind of taken over the Kings Road as the kind of fashion street and there was a salon there called Molton Brown where I could see that in Vogue magazine and Harper’s magazine, the covers and the stories inside the hair was all being done by hairdressers from those salons. Because in those days magazines used hairdressers from salons. There wasn’t really such a thing as freelance hairdressers who just did photoshoots and I wanted to be a part of that thing, that very, very rare thing and I did blag a job and from there I got sent out to do Vogue magazine or I think the, the hairdresser that was booked was ill or was double booked or something so I got sent on a job – absolutely petrified - and, and ended up working with some really lovely people who, some of whom I work with to this day still, or I’m good friends with to this day…
Elliot Moss
Mm.
Sam McKnight
…you know, or both.
Elliot Moss
But that, that interest in music and in fashion and in culture, a kid from Scotland where you are from. How did you get into all of that? What was, what was fascinating about it?
Sam McKnight
I think culturally British youth have been into their music from the 50’s, 60’s. I don’t know about the 40’s. But from the 50’s when the youth culture first started to kind of rear its ugly head there were youth movements in music, you know, like The Who and The Beatles and the Rolling Stones and it was all teenyboppers really and in the 70’s my dad’s sister, my aunt and uncle emigrated from Scotland to Detroit and worked for Ford Motors and I would be sent these Motown compilations in the 60’s from Detroit. So I got into soul music and Motown and the like quite early on, you know, and I think that was probably a catalyst and then early 70’s we started going to, I say nightclubs but it was the room in the back of a pub really with a DJ. And in Scotland it was around the same time as Northern Soul so the north of England and Scotland were very, very into their American imported music and I was a very early fan of Barry White, Philadelphia. The Philly sound really because it came from Motown very quickly into Philly and then the sort of 70’s disco era arrived. So I’d kind of discovered music like that in my youth.
Elliot Moss
As you developed in those early years, did you know that you were doing something more than simply styling somebody’s hair? Was there a sense that this was more important than the thing superficially that it looked like, because this is what I’m, I’m so intrigued about. These relationship you’ve built over many years where it looks like it’s a wash and a cut and you do something special and yet there’s something much more magical, something much bigger and of course we’re talking about a trillions and trillions of pound business. What is it that you realised early on about why it was so important?
Sam McKnight
It’s pretty powerful. I think it’s not something that just dawns on you I think, I think it’s not something that you…
Elliot Moss
Suddenly realise.
Sam McKnight
…it’s something that grows with you. I can’t believe I just said that. For me outwardly it’s about what you look like but actually inwardly it’s about how it makes you feel, you know, because it’s got the power to completely change how you feel, affect how you feel. And that’s in many different ways. If you work in a salon and you’re cutting 10,12 people’s hair in a day, every single person’s going to be completely different and going to be there for a completely different reason. You know, there may be some people who don’t like to change their hair, the come in, they get that security from having the same thing monthly or every 6 weeks or whatever. You get some people who want to experiment, want to really kind of outwardly demonstrate some facet of their personality and that might change every 6 months or every year or every week or whatever and some people use that as a powerful tool to project another part of their personality. Some people wear a long fringe or something to cover what they’re feeling. Some people suffer from, for different reasons, from hair loss which is really debilitating for a lot of people which is a big problem these. So people use their hair in many different ways and no 2 users are the same.
Elliot Moss
And you tap into that very, very quickly. Did you just have a knack?
Sam McKnight
I think you just learn to, yeah you have to learn to pick up signals and kind of be in tune with what someone’s thinking, not just with what they’re saying. Does that make sense?
Elliot Moss
Totally because I may go in every 4 weeks to my barber and say, oh just do what you did last time.
Sam McKnight
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Which is generally what I do Sam but actually I may want to be screaming, I just want to look different. Please take me and fix this.
Sam McKnight
And he might actually not remember what you did last time.
Elliot Moss
He won’t remember.
Sam McKnight
Because it was 6 weeks ago.
Elliot Moss
It was 6 weeks ago and the last time I think I fell asleep and suddenly it was a grade 1 and not a grade 2 and I got home, and someone said, what’s happened to you.
Sam McKnight
Ah you see, that’s fine because it will grow back again.
Elliot Moss
It grows back.
Sam McKnight
2 weeks and it will be there.
Elliot Moss
I’m very, I’m very lucky but famously one of those people that happen to say to you, so Sam, what would you do with my hair, happened to be Princess Diana.
Sam McKnight
Yeah.
Elliot Moss
Way back in the day. You were translating Patrick’s, Patrick Demarchelier’s words. What was that about in that moment. Why did she ask you that question? Why would anyone say actually it’s time to cut loose?
Sam McKnight
I think in retrospect it was 1990, fashions were changing rapidly and I was brought on board by Vogue magazine, we were doing some portraits and I’d never met her before and, I mean I wasn’t fazed because that was my job. I mean by then I had been 15 years working for Vogue and shooting many celebrities, models, covers, all that kind of stuff. So this lovely, gorgeous, leggy blonde comes bouncing up the stairs and kind of disarms us all with her smile and her laughter really, she was funny, you know, she loved to laugh. She knew how to disarm people because she knew people would be a little nervous or whatever.
Elliot Moss
Sure.
Sam McKnight
So she could walk into a room and she charmed us all and she just said, do whatever you want. Because I think now, I didn’t know at the time but now she was going through, obviously going through her…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
…personal things but we weren’t privy to that obviously and so she said, just do whatever you want. But we knew that we were there because there was a change afoot in the way, and Patrick photographed her on the floor, laughing on the floor which had never really been done before and I had made her hair look short, I’d faked it to make it look short with a tiara on her because she’d always had that sort of big 80’s hair with the big 80’s dresses. Well this was kind of much more streamlined and we got along really well and at the end of the shoot she said, if I said to you do whatever you want and I said, well if I was you I’d just cut it all off and kind of start again, it’s a new decade we’re kind of… I could, I felt she wanted…
Elliot Moss
She was hungry for some change?
Sam McKnight
She, yeah she was.
Elliot Moss
She was looking for an answer of some sort?
Sam McKnight
And it was at the time when Linda Evangelista had short hair and a lot of the Vogue cover girls had short hair and it was, we were going from that 80’s sort of maximised into the 90’s sort of, power suits and kind of square shouldered era and she, I think I put a bit of a plastic over her shoulders and we cut her hair off there and then. Yeah, and then I spent the next 7 years going on trips, where I was doing portrait work, working on portraits I think yeah. I feel very privileged to have actually been part of that yeah.
Elliot Moss
Stay with me for much more from my guest, Sam McKnight, he’ll be back in a couple of minutes.
All my former Business Shapers, apparently over 550 of them can be found on the Jazz Shapers podcast, just pop jazz and shapers into your favourite podcast platform and dive in. My wonderful guest today is Sam McKnight, MBE, influential hairstylist and founder of his own brand of products, Hair by Sam McKnight. We went back into the 1990 moment then Sam and I could see, you know, you were there and you talked about those 7 years and that privilege. There’s that Rudyard Kipling poem, the whole if you can walk with kings and queens and all people, you know, you’ll be a man my son and all that. It looks like you’re not fazed by anybody. Was it always like that and if so, why? Because some people do get star struck and I know you’re now 30/40 years into working for these amazing people.
Sam McKnight
It’s 50.
Elliot Moss
I know but I thought I be, I thought I’d go gently, I thought I’d move the 70’s to the 80’s and go…
Sam McKnight
Okay, alright.
Elliot Moss
…we’re truncating time but you look amazing.
Sam McKnight
Absolutely fine with it.
Elliot Moss
Yeah you look bloomin’ good. How come it is just I treat the person in front of me the way they are. Why is there no?
Sam McKnight
I think it’s probably the nature of what we do for a living you know, you’ve got different people sitting in your chair, you can’t really be fazed by anyone really.
Elliot Moss
No butterflies though in the early days? When…
Sam McKnight
Maybe, oh in the early days, yeah when I first started. Yeah absolutely. I mean I, I came from a mining village in Scotland and I’m in the, I think I remember one of them. It was an underwear shoot for Vogue in the Park Lane Hotel. I’m in this sort of fancy hotel with all these women who spoke with posh accents which I’d never heard before and yeah, I was definitely a bit intimidated but you know, you get over yourself don’t you, you know what I mean.
Elliot Moss
And they stayed, a lot of these people have relationships with you still?
Sam McKnight
Yes absolutely.
Elliot Moss
And what’s that about?
Sam McKnight
The, the thing I’ve loved most about my entire career is the people because you are in close contact with people. You work very, very closely, there’s not many other industries where you’re actually touching people, you know…
Elliot Moss
Mm.
Sam McKnight
…for a long time. You see people at 5.00, 6.00am at their rawest and you’re at your rawest too.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
And it’s a job so someone has to be there, a model has to be there at 6.00 in the, there’s no choice for that, you can’t not turn up. You have to be there whatever has happened the day before or the night, you know, it’s rare that you can’t. I was listening to the radio this morning. Freelancers’ can’t have a day off, you know, you just can’t have, you don’t have the option of not going to work, or you’ve lost the client, you know, that’s how it is. So you’re turning up to work in, in various states of distress or not so you see each other at your rawest and you tend to work with a lot of the same people all the time for many years because it’s about, it’s about the teams, it’s about the collaborations. It’s not like in a salon where you’re one in, one out, one out. You’re sometimes a week with someone or you’re travelling to, I don’t know, some deserted island or, or desert in Arizona.
Elliot Moss
What a tough gig.
Sam McKnight
Or, or sharing a tent with someone and carrying your poo bucket because you’re not allowed to leave it in the wilderness for a week. So you kind of, you build close relationships.
Elliot Moss
But, and in those relationships, do you give of yourself as well? We talk about those people going through stuff and they may share with you. Do you share with them as well? Do you think that’s been part of why those relationships…
Sam McKnight
Yeah I probably do but not with everyone. I’m probably a little more, I probably hold on to things a bit more.
Elliot Moss
Mm.
Sam McKnight
I don’t know. It depends on the moment, you know, it depends if…
Elliot Moss
But they trust you obviously. I mean that’s the point, you’ve built this, these relationships.
Sam McKnight
The amazing thing is that I’ve come to realise in my old age is that without being too kind of dismissive, a lot of it goes in one ear and out the other and I won’t remember what you’ve said, do you know… unless you remind me because you have an inbuilt kind of not taking it on board.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
You know you’re a sound board.
Elliot Moss
You’d be a good psychologist actually because that says you’re not processing stuff.
Sam McKnight
I think there’s definitely a lot of psychology involved in it, there’s a lot and it is kind of knowing when somebody want’s that, or if somebody just wants you to listen.
Elliot Moss
Yeah a lot of that’s instinct though it sounds like, you know...
Sam McKnight
Yeah but it’s not just instinct, it’s a learned…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
…skill I suppose. I suppose it’s a skill yeah.
Elliot Moss
Those teams you talked about Sam, those teams of people that you’re with. It’s a concentrated moment, it’s quite intense. It’s obviously changed, that intensity and those small teams have now become, they’ve mushroomed and also there’s so much content now that you, that specialness of the shoot and of the fact that you could get Kate Moss looking the way she did then. You’ve now got 100,000 bits of content going, going around. The first question, devaluing what you do, devaluing the industry of style and the industry of, of content around fashion. What’s going on do you think and what’s, what do you think about it?
Sam McKnight
Well I mean I’ve been quite vocal about it because when I started and traditionally you work for a magazine as a hairdresser, you don’t get paid, you get a nominal fee which nowadays doesn’t cover your expenses, doesn’t cover anything, it really is nominal and it hasn’t changed much for many years. But often you get nothing at all, absolutely zero and I notice when the publications started to be not just on paper, they’d be online and then that became more important and then there’s all these publications have never been on paper, they’re just online publications and using hair and make-up beauty teams to create their content and the deal was always you did a cover of Vogue or you did a shoot for Vogue or Bizarre or whoever it was and you, you didn’t get paid or you got paid a nominal fee but you’d get the all-important credit…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
…in the magazine. You could put that in your window and that was your, that was your kind of ad if you like. And that’s, that’s been the case for decades but then I noticed people weren’t crediting the beauty teams online like they would do in the magazine so it felt to me like they weren’t valuing what we were bringing to the table. And it wasn’t, I wasn’t doing it for me, you know…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
…it was for the younger generation who are just starting out. They need those mentions in the publications. They desperately need them to build a career you know, well so and so did that and if you’re not posting that to your million or half a million whatever it is or 20,000 followers, then no one knows that they did it and they didn’t get paid so where’s the deal? Where is the deal there? And what’s gone on from this is a lot of the shoots are now sponsored by huge brands and none of that money is passed down to the team, they are still treated like it’s, like the old business model where you get them to do it for free, they get their credit…
Elliot Moss
But no credits.
Sam McKnight
…everyone’s happy.
Elliot Moss
But no credit.
Sam McKnight
If, if you’re getting people to do things for free and not crediting them then there is no deal there. And I think that has to change. I do think it has, I mean, this business when I started was tiny, there were probably 10 people in the world who did what I do, you know, maybe 15, I don’t know. Now there are hundreds, if not thousands of people globally…
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
…who do it. It’s not just in the big fashion cities and I think the people at the top of the game need to, to set the tone you know, because everyone else will follow and I think the devaluation of what the beauty teams bring to the table is, it’s really important to not allow that to happen for me, you know.
Elliot Moss
You think it’s fixable?
Sam McKnight
I think it’s fixable now but if it goes on much longer then I don’t, I think then, I think it needs to go much further than that. I think it needs to be, there, there’s no real health and safety. There’s no, um, there are no rules, it’s still the Wild West but it’s run by people who have a lot of money at the top which is not filtering down and it’s, it’s, I mean it’s the same in many, many industries, it’s not just here, it’s not just particular to the fashion industry.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
But what I see is, I see there needs to be some kind of structure, some kind of rules and regulations, you know, that people need to abide to. I’ve been working with Back to the Union, to try to get people to join and that, that’s been difficult because there’s a lot of backlash from certain sides of the industry who don’t want the workers to join a union because they’re threatened by that and it shouldn’t be like that. I think if the young generation of creatives is not protected then no one’s going to want to be in the business, you know. So it’s a funny, we’re in a very strange time in many ways but I do think there needs to be some, some rules. Actually we’ve been working with the British Fashion Council and the Beauty Council and Back to the Union so I think we’re beginning to make inroads.
Elliot Moss
Final chat and I hope those inroads happen with my guest today, Sam McKnight will be coming up shortly. We’ve got some Gilberto Gil for you too, that’s in just a moment, don't go anywhere.
Sam McKnight is my Business Shaper just for a few more minutes. I wanted to talk about Hair by Sam McKnight. I want to talk about the fact 2017 you set your own business up. Why then? Why did you do it at that moment if you can cast your mind back, because that’s, you’ve been in the business a long time?
Sam McKnight
I had and I had consulted for big brands for many, many years and we had actually prepared everything about 5 years before working towards launching and then I was offered, very kindly, an amazing exhibition at Somerset House.
Elliot Moss
Somerset House, yeah.
Sam McKnight
Which was, which was fabulous. So that took a few years of prep.
Elliot Moss
Okay. Because that happened 2016/2017 as well didn’t it?
Sam McKnight
Yeah. We’d been working on that for…
Elliot Moss
A long time.
Sam McKnight
…many years before and on a book and digitalising all of my like, hundreds of thousands of pages of paper.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
And so we worked on the book and then afterwards we delayed the products until after that and you know, and you know I was not getting any younger and I thought if I want to do this…
Elliot Moss
If not now, when.
Sam McKnight
…I’ve got to do that now you know.
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
I’ve got to figure out a way of making money by not going out to work.
Elliot Moss
Yeah by when you’re asleep, when you’re asleep Sam you want to be making money because being awake is great but wouldn’t it be nice if when you’re asleep…
Sam McKnight
Absolutely, absolutely.
Elliot Moss
And did you find great people to work with you because you’re a busy man, you’re still...
Sam McKnight
I have a great team, I have my right hand man who’s been with me for nearly 30 years, I have another wonderful woman at work who’s been with me 16 years so we, the 3 of us are hairdressers, Eamon and Valerie, I’ll name them now. The 3 of us are hairdressers so we kind of invented everything from scratch. We did everything ourselves, funded by myself. Spent a lot of time on it from the packaging to the fragrance to everything, we did it all ourselves.
Elliot Moss
And if you think about when you’re in it and you’re cutting and styling, when you’re with these famous people, iconic people, creating iconic shots and now this business. Which, do you enjoy all of them because it’s quite a different discipline running a business and being involved in a business?
Sam McKnight
I do, I enjoy all of it. I really do. I mean, what I don’t want to do, I mean I made the decision around that time as I don’t really enjoy standing on the top of a hill in the rain tucking someone’s hair behind their ear anymore. So I’m going to be a little more, um, because a lot of it involves, I mean some of it involves incredible creativity but there’s a lot of it is…
Elliot Moss
Just hard graft?
Sam McKnight
It’s hard graft in the rain tucking literally 2 hairs behind someone’s ear which kind of really doesn’t appeal to me anymore and I think it was around the time social media first started. That’s when we started developing the products because I can see that there was this amazing hunger for information. Because before we were working backstage on shows, very, very few people outside of the industry knew that job even existed. But Somerset House kind of did that exhibition to kind of highlight that side of the industry. So we kind of pivoted off of that and used social media in a way that was promoting the brand which people hadn’t really latched on to yet. I remember doing shows for 2 very, very big famous designers and they refused to acknowledge social media. We weren’t allowed to post anything and you guys, you guys are behind the times. They slowly caught up but I think we kind of saw early on that there was a business opportunity in social media.
Elliot Moss
And somewhere between, you said a lot of quotable things over the years Sam, you talked about historically, I like the fact that a lot of things are left to chance. I like the space to be creative. Are you able to do that in the business or is it a bit more structured?
Sam McKnight
It’s a lot more structured but I think we still retain a bit of spontaneity, yes we do. Because we’re still very small so we can turn things around really quickly. We don’t have to have something in process for 2 years or 3 years before it comes to market. We can turn things around in a few months and we can change things. We’re not sort of…
Elliot Moss
Not too rigid.
Sam McKnight
Tied down as rigidly like…
Elliot Moss
And it’s your business right…
Sam McKnight
Yes, yeah.
Elliot Moss
…so you can still, you can still…
Sam McKnight
I can make the decisions, yeah.
Elliot Moss
The next few years, just looking forward, what does happiness look like for you because you’ve achieved so much, it isn’t like you’ve got to, you know, you’re one of the OG’s as it were, if I’m allowed to say that, I think you are. You, you’ve got nothing to prove. What’s driving Sam these days?
Sam McKnight
Oh god that’s hard to say. The same, I always like to move on. I can…
Elliot Moss
You like change?
Sam McKnight
I can be quite, I can be quite nostalgic. No I can resist change but I know change is inevitable and I know we need to embrace change but I don’t like change for the sake of, I like evolution. Does that make sense?
Elliot Moss
Yeah.
Sam McKnight
I like evolution. I like when things evolve nicely. I think for me it’s, I’m happy right now doing exactly what I’m doing and I’d like to see the business grow obviously and…
Elliot Moss
And you’d like to see young people treated fairly?
Sam McKnight
I like seeing, and I would like to stay healthy as long as possible. I mean I’m 71, so I’d like, I’d like a healthy old age. I’ve no intention of retiring and I mean, I can’t imagine anything worse than kind of not having anything to do. I keep very, very busy, we’re doing fashion shows right now, we’re off to Paris next week. We’ve got new products coming out, I’ve got a garden to take care of.
Elliot Moss
A lot of gardening and you love your garden.
Sam McKnight
I love my gardening yeah, yeah.
Elliot Moss
Is that, is that just a calm space for you?
Sam McKnight
It’s a, it’s almost meditative because it doesn’t involve anyone else, it’s just me, you know, I can be out there twiddling and I love sowing seeds and I’ve got a 9lb pumpkin hanging there which I’m very, very proud of at the moment. It’s the little things.
Elliot Moss
Simple pleasures. That and reading by the sounds of it.
Sam McKnight
Reading too yeah.
Elliot Moss
He’s got a Kindle now, just so you know, we’re allowed to give that away, I just did. Um, thank you for spending some time with me today.
Sam McKnight
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
I really appreciate it. Good luck, go into the future, do what you do.
Sam McKnight
Thank you.
Elliot Moss
And keep evolving. Just before I let you disappear, what’s your song choice and why have you chosen it?
Sam McKnight
My song choice is a song I’ve loved since the 70’s, it’s called Runaway Love by Linda Clifford. I’m sure you’re not going to play the 11 minute version but I would urge you to listen to the 11 minute version. I always love those long, extended 70’s versions. My other choice was going to be an Ella Fitzgerald song because I was really lucky to see her at the New Orleans Jazz Festival.
Elliot Moss
Oh wow.
Sam McKnight
I was on a trip there doing a catalogue for an American department store and she was playing in the Blue Room I think it was called and we got to go and see Ella Fitzgerald. It must have been 1984 and it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life but I couldn’t choose an Ella Fitzgerald one because there’s so many so I give you Linda Clifford.
Elliot Moss
How good was that, Linda Clifford with Runaway Love, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Sam McKnight. He talked about the ability he has developed to tune into what people are thinking and not just what they are saying and there is a big difference as you know. Freelancers can’t have a day off, if you take that ethos into your business and you’re your work and into founding your business you’re going to be absolutely fine. You’ve got to turn up, you’ve got to do absolutely your best. Sam talked about not liking change for the sake of it but liking evolution, the organic sense of things moving on and adapting and becoming better. And finally, and he was talking about gardening but I love the idea in terms of business and creativity, I love sowing seeds. Great stuff. That's it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.
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