Jazz Shaper: Darrel Sheinman

Elliot Moss

That was Ray Charles, of course, with Swanee River Rock.  Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues.  My guest today, I'm really pleased to say, is Darrel Sheinman, Founder and CEO of independent record label Gearbox Records.  Starting his career in financial services and commodity trading, Darrel founded in 1998 Polestar Space Applications Limited, what a great name, providing maritime satellite tracking to the shipping industry, a company he later sold for $100 million.  As a lifelong drummer and high-fidelity enthusiast, Darrel noticed in the CD generation of the late 2000s a decline in recording and production standards.  Wanting more high calibre live recordings released on vinyl, he founded jazz label Gearbox Records in 2009, initially as a hobby, and started scouring the British Library archives for unreleased live recordings.  Now based in London and Tokyo, Gearbox Records operates a full analogue and digital studio, and their dual output includes previously unreleased recordings by Thelonious Monk and Art Blakey alongside new music by jazz artists such as Binkram Moses, and Abdullah Ibrahim, and an expanded focus to ambient, electronic and folk. Darrel joins me imminently, and the music in today's Jazz Shapers comes from the amazing Roy Ayers, Manu Dibango, Ezra Collective, and Yazmin Lacey and here’s Herbie Hancock with Fat Mama.

That was the wonderful Herbie Hancock.  You can't go wrong with Herbie Hancock, can you here on Jazz Shapers with Fat Mama, of course.  Darrel Sheinman's my Business Shaper, he's the Founder of Gearbox Records, but also, as you were hearing, the founder of Polestar Space Applications, which he sold back in 1998, which feels like 1,000 years ago, it wasn't really.  Lovely to have you here, Darrel.

Darrel Sheinman

Thank you for having me.

Elliot Moss

Very easy to start with the record label, which I want to get into, but actually I want to go back a little bit.  What moved you from the world of being an employee into the world of founding a business way back when with this first business?  Tell me how that happened and why you were drawn to not working for somebody else.

Darrel Sheinman

Good question, actually.  When I was working for somebody else, I was in banking, I was a trader in the city.  So it was sort of entrepreneurial anyway, to be honest and I actually had a spell of trading as what they called a local on the exchange floor, trading for myself, which was not that great.  But so I went back to working for a big bank.  But I think I'd always promised myself to sort of get out of trading you know, I didn't want to be in it forever and 12 years later, I carried on with that promise and decided to set up my own business.  But I had an idea which had come from trading, and that was, you know, being able to track ships around the world.  I wanted to track containers, but it was impossible because of various technical reasons at that time.  And so when I left the business, and Credit Suisse First Boston, who were my employer at that time, were very supportive and invested my shares, which gave me some cash to be able to do the business on the condition that if I came back to banking, it had to be with them, nowhere else.

Elliot Moss

Which was easy because you knew you weren't going to come back.

Darrel Sheinman

Kind of yeah.  So started the business tracking ships by satellite, which was so early on in the internet's history that although it was a great product, a lot of our customers or potential customers couldn't use it because they had dial-up, you know, internet.  It was very embarrassing.

Elliot Moss

And how did you know what to do at that point?  I mean, obviously we're going to come to the how you set up a record label, which in itself is a thing.  How did the trader know where to go in terms of a company that was going to have a satellite functionality that tracks ships around the world?  I mean, that is quite a, quite a move.

Darrel Sheinman

Well, yeah, I guess so.  I teamed up with a guy who was at Cambridge and Imperial finishing off his PhD, and he did all the programming.  So we just used to spend time in his digs at Imperial on a whiteboard working stuff out and then built this product and then it was sort of, well, how, how's it going to be sold?  And what I had made a mistake on was that I hadn't realised that the data we collected from the satellite airtime was proprietary data to the ship owners and I couldn't therefore use it.  If you wanted to say relocate from, I don't know, London to New York, I had this false idea that you could actually see where your ship was and it was great and I could sell this to the mass market.  Well, that didn't happen.  So we nearly went bust.  And then 9/11 happened, which I had to say turned the business around because we changed the law of the sea with the International Maritime Organisation that all ships over 250 tonnes had to be tracked and we were the only people in there.

Elliot Moss

Who were doing it.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  I mean, obviously there's competition now and there was pretty soon after, but we got that first mover advantage.

Elliot Moss

And the one lesson you might have taken from all of that, that was it all about the luck or was there something else?  Was it sometimes the market isn't ready for the technology, but you know what, it will be?

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  I think being an entrepreneur is a rollercoaster, largely because of cash flow, largely because your timing can't be perfect.  So the best advice I always give people, and I have mentored people on this sort of thing, is to try and stay in the game for long enough so that the opportunities come and you spot them and take them. Because, you know, if we had gone bust at that point, I wouldn't have been around to take advantage of the whole security, maritime security world changing.  And that was luck, that was purely luck.  There was no skill in that whatsoever except for being around and running, bootstrapping it until opportunity came up.

Elliot Moss

And we wouldn't be having this conversation now about the passion venture, which has turned into something a lot more, which is Gearbox Records.  Stay with me for much more from my business shaper today, Darrel Sheinman, Founder and CEO of Gearbox Records.  And as you heard earlier, a rather successful entrepreneur just when it looked like it may not have happened way back in the day.  Time for some music right now, one of my all-time favourites, Mr Roy Ayers and this reminds me of being 18 again, Love Will Bring Us Back Together.

I know I'm using superlatives today, but was that brilliant?  Roy Ayers, the extraordinary Roy Ayers with Love Will Bring Us Back Together throws me back to around 1988, '89 with The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, a club somewhere near Oxford Street, can't remember exactly where it was.  Darrel Sheinman is my Business Shaper more importantly today, he's the Founder and CEO of Gearbox Records and he was also, as you were hearing earlier, the founder of Polestar Space Applications.  So that, I love that stay in the game for long enough thing, that's absolutely right.  Your game though, in reality, has been passion-wise about music and, um, we, you leave this, the world of kind of, well, I've made enough money and I can do what I want.  When you were younger, did you always have that plan to say, at some point I'm going to do the thing I love?  And were you working towards that, Darrel?  Because I talk to my kids and my kids' friends about being more intentional than I was as a kid but it sounds like you might have been quite intentional from a young age.

Darrel Sheinman

I was, and not in terms of the goal.  Harvard Business School and all these places say you got to be goal-driven, goal-driven.  Actually, there's a lovely phrase which comes from our martial art that a Samurai has no goal, only a path.

Elliot Moss

This is jiu-jitsu, and as you call it kobudo.

Darrel Sheinman

Kobudo, yeah.

Elliot Moss

Which is the original.

Darrel Sheinman

We just call it budo, yeah.

Elliot Moss

Budo.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

So say that again, say that phrase again.

Darrel Sheinman

A Samurai has no goal, only a path.  And what does that mean?  It means that, you know, it's never linear to get to any particular goal or place.  And if you are too goal-driven, your expectations are going to be dashed.  So whilst you have to have the idea of where you want to be or what you'd like to do, that's good.  But I think people get it slightly wrong in that they think that means I've got to be really prescriptive about where I want to be when and whatever and just life doesn't work like that.

Elliot Moss

So how did you frame it?  And at what age were you framing it?

Darrel Sheinman

Well, I wanted to be a racing driver at 3 years old.

Elliot Moss

Did you?

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  And still would.  I did actually have a spell go-karting actually down at Butmore Park in Maidstone.  But obviously that dream never happened and I actually did try to raise some money for Formula 1 team with a guy called Guy Edwards.  There's a bit of motor racing, I was born in Northamptonshire near Silverstone and our neighbour was a guy called Tony Southgate who was very famous for doing the Audi Le Mans car.   I found out he designed the Bentley designed.  He was the S in Arrows, Southgate.  So he's, you know, so I had a bit of exposure to motor racing and as a result wanted to get involved, but never did as a driver and then moved on to more sensible ideas.

Elliot Moss

But the music thing, was there something in your head that say one day, because you're obviously, I read that you were a drummer from a young age, like my number one son who's been a drummer from a young age.  Did you say, you know what, I'd love to be in that industry, that's the path?

Darrel Sheinman

No, because I was really avaricious and I basically thought there was no money in it and I think I'm right on that one as well.  But I wanted, so I never wanted to be a professional drummer.  I wanted to just be in a band and play and have fun and that's what I did and I was in a band all the way through my banking career and the maritime security career and really until half my band moved to different countries.  So no, I never wanted to take it professional.

Elliot Moss

But your path was then in more, more about I need to earn money.  I want to earn money so that I've got some freedom to do whatever I want and at that time it may be A, B, or C.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

You weren't fixed on what that would be, just the sense of freedom.  The concept of freedom was what was driving you.

Darrel Sheinman

Yes, exactly and I ended up in my degree, I had a year out and I worked in New York in a trade on the trading floor for Macarthur Metals and just really liked the atmosphere and I liked what people were doing.  I was in the research division and thought, you know, when I'm finished, I want to come back and do this.  So it wasn't, there was no, that was, there you go there's an example of no specific pathway, um, but there was a pathway and a bit of a goal.

Elliot Moss

And just really briefly, without sounding too coarse, why the focus?  Why were you so clear about making money is going to be useful to me?  And I mean, obviously everyone needs to earn a living.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

I don't mean it like that.  I mean, for you though, there was a sense of actually it was going to be significant for you, you were going to go for it.  What made you the person that wanted to go for it like that?

Darrel Sheinman

Well, the first thing that, I mean, it sounds like that again was a linear thing.  It wasn't.  It was actually at the same time as being intrigued by the trading world, I thought this is also a great way to make a lot of money and thought that I'd like to come back and give it a go.  I'm probably quite good at it because I had a sense that I knew how to sort of buy low and sell high and I quite enjoyed the people in there.  They were quite smart people who were also going on the same journey as me and so I never really had the intention, ‘oh, I need to make…’.  There were some traders who said, ‘oh, I've got to make X million and then I will quit’.  And of course those guys are still in because that never happens because you get used to the trappings of life and you…

Elliot Moss

Spend more.

Darrel Sheinman

…you spend more and usually, actually, people who are quite wealthy like that actually just can't even afford to leave, right?  So I wanted to get out before I got to that point and did so that the cash was actually like, yes, sort of a ticket to some business freedom.

Elliot Moss

And the business freedom has led to Gearbox Records, which we'll be hearing much more about very shortly. And that will be with my guest, Darrel Sheinman, who's the Founder and CEO.  He's coming back in a couple of minutes.

You can enjoy all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast, and you can hear this very programme again if you pop the words jazz and shapers - I know it's complicated - into your favourite podcast platform.  My guest today is Darrel Sheinman, Founder and CEO of independent record label Gearbox Records. So we were talking about passions and music and freedom, and then the opportunity comes.  You have delivered, you have your stash of cash, you are ready to go.  I'm kidding, but you know, you have, you have freedom, Darrel, you have freedom, you have enough to say I have agency, I have a choice.  And then you go and set yourself up with a record label.  There's a bit obviously before around the discovery of fabulous music.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah, I think that's right.  So I was brought up in a jazz household, really.  My dad was listening to jazz, he was a skiffle player.  He met my mum - he's English, my mum's Nigerian - and they met in Soho, you know, he used to hang out with the Ghanaians and Nigerians and whatever.  And even though he's a good Jewish boy from the East End or from Highbury, but um…

Elliot Moss

What a combination.

Darrel Sheinman

Yes, I'm the United Nations, but that's another story.

Elliot Moss

Aren't we all?  I mean, look at me as well.  We, we like a bit of everything, that's good.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  Well, Black Catholic and white Jewish in the '60s getting married.

Elliot Moss

Pretty unusual.

Darrel Sheinman

Very unusual.  In fact, his dad didn't speak to him until I was born do, um, that was quite an interesting environment, I'm sure, for him.  Um, so I think that passion for music came out once I'd earned a little bit of money and was able to lose it all in music, I decided to set the label up because to me there was something missing.  What was missing, I came from a sort of sonic audiophile kind of angle and felt that a lot of the productions that were coming out largely on CD and compressed massively were just not really making good listening.

Elliot Moss

Would I notice the difference if I'm a regular person?

Darrel Sheinman

100%.

Elliot Moss

Okay.

Darrel Sheinman

We've done that test in our studio, so we have…

Elliot Moss

Even people who are not audiophiles?

Darrel Sheinman

Completely.

Elliot Moss

Okay.

Darrel Sheinman

So what we do, we've done in the studio where we've done two different variants.  One's all analogue, say on tape, one's a digital compressed thing.  People notice that they face the wall and you play it.

Elliot Moss

And I should say actually just on that, there is in your world that you've created, you have a studio with incredible facilities and you also obviously you have new artists and you have unpublished gems on your label as well and a very, I kind of think about it looking forwards and looking back and celebrating what's going, what happened before. But also what's coming next.

Darrel Sheinman

Exactly.  In fact, we have a phrase called Future Analogue, that's our tagline, which is essentially because the whole record label was set up to try and be as analogue as possible.   Um, we do use digital, we don't shun it. That's not the point at all.  In fact, we do third-party mastering for lots of acts and they want digital or have digital sources.  Um, so we don't shun digital, but we know that it sounds better done in an analogue way with the right equipment, the right transformers, the right valves and so on.

Elliot Moss

But the very initial thing for Gearbox was actually finding these gems which hadn't been released before, but that you found in the British Library archives of all places.  What was, just help me understand how you knew that you wanted to go find those.  Why were you in there and what was it like?

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  I think because,  so if you've got this sort of technical methodology that you're bringing to the table, you've got to find the right content for that and for me, that was jazz because a lot of jazz was recorded live to tape, and those sources were available.  And then I was asking around, and I found out that you could probably find these sources at the British Library, because they had a wonderful archive, especially for the BBC and that's how I found the first few titles, just literally sitting in the library in their carousels listening to jazz.

Elliot Moss

So little booths, like those voting booths almost, but you're sitting down and you put your headphones on and you can literally just spool through.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.  Yeah, you'd have to get the engineers to put on the right thing.  They'd put it on, "Your carousel's ready, Mr Sheinman", "Oh, great."

Elliot Moss

Amazing.  I mean, that's like a very, it's a bit like studying, you know, I remember studying for my politics degree in the big University of Leeds library, and you go and find this thing that you have to sign out, and you can only use pencils, and you're wearing gloves and things.  It must have felt like you're really, you're in history.

Darrel Sheinman

Oh, completely and in fact, to the extent that the curator, who sadly, Andy Linehan, who's passed away now, but he and a guy called Paul Wilson, they were the curators, the music curators at the library, would help me with that and bring out beautiful things, lovely tapes or books about the stuff and just even the cataloguing of it was all really nicely done and yeah, it was, it was completely what you're saying.  And I thought that was great.

Elliot Moss

Stay with me for much more from my Business Shaper, Darrel Sheinman.  We're going to find out how he took these gems and put them in a place where other people could enjoy them, not just him in the carousel.  But that does sound kind of enjoyable and private and a nice bit of solitude.  Time for some more music right now on Jazz Shapers. it's Manu Dibango with The Panther.

Manu Dibango with The Panther.  It’s super upbeat, which is good because Darrel Sheinman is my super upbeat Business Shapers today.  He's the Founder and CEO of Gearbox Records and as I, and I love your line, future analogue.  It's exactly that, this sense of new, new talent and we've got, I think, Binka and Moses are on your label and there's a few others.  I interviewed last summer at the Jazz, the Love Supreme Festival, Jazz Shapers live with Janine Irons and Gary Crosby and an amazing festival and they, of course, Tomorrow's Warriors, are the people that have curated so much of the jazz acts that you're now signing on.  Why do you think there's been an explosion from your perspective?  What's happened to this country, which is brilliant?

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah, yeah.

Elliot Moss

But you know, why is it not just you and the carousel?  Why is now the wider population going, wow, there's this thing called jazz, it's brilliant?

Darrel Sheinman

I don't know.  I think it was lucky, again luck, lucky timing. I was really in there to put this music out on vinyl.  That was the primary interest, um, and it seemed to time with vinyl coming back in 2009 if you look at the chart, the chart was vinyl dropped off the chart and started coming back in 2009 and it's continued that trajectory today.  Everyone keeps saying, ‘oh, it's a bubble that's going to burst’.  It isn't, it's growing faster and even my kids have record players.

Elliot Moss

Yeah mine too.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

They love it.

Darrel Sheinman

It's definitely here to stay.  It never went away, but I mean, it's really here to stay now.  Um, so I wanted to bring some of this music to a wider audience that was mastered properly and really sounded different and gave people an experience that they perhaps hadn't had before, especially if you have a great playback system.  And that's how I wanted to bring it to them.

Elliot Moss

And I was, when I was researching for the programme, I saw some names which I hadn't heard of because I'm only, you know what you know.  Sean Davis engineer, Adam Seath, I think on the out as a mentor for you and someone who's obviously, once I'd read about him, I go, ‘oh, it's him’, head of jazz here, big labels, Sony and Tower Records and all the rest of it.  It seems like you're really good, if you don't mind me saying, Darrel, um, at sort of spotting talent, whether that's talent of yesteryear, talent in the business world, or talent in today's musicians.  If that's true, why do you think you're good at it?  What's going on?

Darrel Sheinman

I think it's actually being honest with yourself, that sounds quite clichéd, but, you know, if you like something, there's a good chance that somebody else is going to like it.  But if you, but you have to be honest with yourself that I like this, not I like it because I'm trying to chase the market.  But I think chasing the market's a mistake, and I've never really done that so if I like a piece of music, if I like an artist, if I like someone who's special doing business, I will work with them and it's my choice, and if I get it wrong, so be it.  But it's just because I particularly like it.  So, Sean Davis taught me how to master records.  He restored our lathe, and he was one of the geniuses from the past. And of course…

Elliot Moss

Just tell me what the lathe is, so for people…

Darrel Sheinman

That's a cutting lathe to cut the masters for vinyl, which we have in our studio and I hadn't even realised that he was one of the leading guys in his era, um, and therefore, I was downloading information from one of the masters and I just went with my gut because he was a nice guy and he seemed to know what he was talking about.

Elliot Moss

And why do you trust your gut?  Just before we go to our final chat, what is it about your own sense of confidence in that?  Because we always hear, ‘trust your gut, trust your gut’, but…

Darrel Sheinman

Well, I'll tell you what, to trust your gut, you have to not be scared of failing.  So failure is not a problem.  If you fail, it's okay because you learn from failure.  But I think a lot of people, might have a feeling and they get really indecisive and scared about going forward because they don't want to fail.  I don't really care about failing, it's part of life and I've failed many times.  So I think that, and therefore it makes it look like you've made a good decision because you haven't seen all the crap ones before.

Elliot Moss

We'll keep those, we don't need to talk about that.  Stay with me for a final chat with Darrel Sheinman, he's the Founder and CEO of Gearbox Records and he's got a tonne of insight delivered in an incredibly humble way. He's back shortly and we've also got some Ezra Collective and Yazmin Lacey.  That's in just a moment, don't go anywhere.

Ezra Collective featuring Yazmin Lacey, God Gave Me Feet for Dancing.  Wow an amazing line up today.  Darrel Sheinman is my Business Shaper just for a few more minutes.  Two quick questions.  A new world of music, the music industry has changed.  You talk a lot about, and I've had other guests on, including Dave Stewart actually in his new entity, talking about you need to create relationships directly with fans and technology can now do that.  Just give me a quick sense of how you're looking at that and what you're doing specifically.

Darrel Sheinman

So we've just launched, we're well known for high-end hi-fi vinyl playback systems and so on and mastering so we have just launched a club called the Gearbox Kissaten Club.  And the Kissaten is a Japanese coffee shop or bar where you listen to music on a great hi-fi, usually tiny little places, and you don't talk.

Elliot Moss

Inspired actually Spiritland and Paul Noble was a guest on the show as well, similar thing.

Darrel Sheinman

Exactly the same thing and in fact, we're probably going to do our first venue for album playbacks at Supermax, which is…

Elliot Moss

One of his.

Darrel Sheinman

Yeah, absolutely underneath Happy Face Pizza.

Elliot Moss

That’s right.

Darrel Sheinman

And we're working with Lauder Hi-Fi and Audio Note Hi-Fi to create a spectacle down there and we will do these playback sessions.  You can only come if you're a member and we're doing loyalty points.  You can get loyalty points if you're not a member, but if you want to come to our events, and our artist showcases, which we did one recently for Robin Katz at the, um, the, um, Saatchi Yates Gallery, you're going to have to be a member.

Elliot Moss

But basically there's an access to the music directly happening.

Darrel Sheinman

Access to music directly and us as a label getting to know our customers and mingle with our customers, you know and we hope to get great, um, DJs like yourself down there.

Elliot Moss

Anytime, you just ask me.

Darrel Sheinman

Supporting ones.

Elliot Moss

If only he was being sincere.  That's the first time Darrel Sheinman has not been sincere on this show.  But you know what, I'm only kidding, I'd love to come, I'd love to be part of that.   Um, and that makes perfect sense.  I think the world has changed and you absolutely need to change with it.  Just one last question before I let you disappear back to your world.  Are you now in a place where you can say every day you wake up and you go, I'm not stressed anymore because the things I worried about when I was younger, I don't worry about, or have you actually fundamentally not changed despite the, the world of the material world around you changing, despite you moving from the world of satellites into music?  I'm just wondering where Darrel's at in his life.

Darrel Sheinman

Oh no, I mean, I don't wake up with no stress at all, in fact…

Elliot Moss

Damn.

Darrel Sheinman

I’ve probably got the other way around. I don't, there isn't this nirvana.

Elliot Moss

No.

Darrel Sheinman

Weirdly, no, it's the same stuff.

Elliot Moss

Disappointing Darrel, disappointing.

Darrel Sheinman

But I'm sure you've found the same, I mean…

Elliot Moss

Yeah.

Darrel Sheinman

But I think what you do get as you get older is just that confidence and belief that actually whatever life chucks at you, everything will be all right.  You know, to end on another clichéd phrase, we have something called Banpen Fugyo, which means 10,000 changes, no surprises and in a way, that is how my life runs at the moment, like, there's change every day.  It's all different.  It's all a bit stressful, but you know, it's not, why be surprised by it?

Elliot Moss

This has been great talking to you and yeah, you're right, why be surprised by it?  We should expect it, shouldn't we really? And yet we don't as humans.

Darrel Sheinman

No.

Elliot Moss

No.  Um, just before I do let you disappear, what's your song choice and why have you chosen it?

Darrel Sheinman

I've chosen In a Silent Way by Miles Davis and why?  Because that was played by my dad and in the house when I was young, probably 6 years old and we used to dance to it around the house.  It was brilliant.  Alongside other things like Dave Brubeck's Time Out and Take Five and whatever so, but this track particularly, I remember, and his best friend was a hi-fi nut and they used to play it really loud and watch the VU metres go up and down on their reel-to-reel machines and that's a memory.

Elliot Moss

Amazing and it's a 20 minute track, but we've chosen an excerpt just to be clear.  Brilliant, here it is just for you.

Miles Davis, In a Silent Way, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Darrel Sheinman.  He talked about the Samurai, the Samurai has no goal, only a path.  I absolutely love that, be flexible.  10,000 changes, no surprises, another great aphorism.  Think about that in the reality of your own life, it's certainly true in mine.  We shouldn't be surprised by the changes.  Being honest with yourself, he talked about.  Do you like the thing you are creating?  Is it really something you love?  In other words, create a product that you love, don't chase the market, to use Darrel's words.  And finally, stay in the game for long enough.  He talked about the luck that you need as an entrepreneur, and that moment when it all happens is only there if you're still in the game and that's a focus issue, a resilience issue, and of course, a luck issue.  Be around long enough to get lucky.  Really good stuff.

You can hear my conversation with Darrel all over again whenever you'd like to as a podcast just search Jazz Shapers, or you can ask your smart speaker to play Jazz Shapers.  Alternatively, if you're up with the larks, you can catch this programme again Monday morning just before the Jazz FM breakfast at 5.00am.  We're back next Saturday with my next Business Shapers, Antonia and Johnny Philp, Co-founders of skincare company Nursem.  Up next after the news at 10.00, it's Nigel Williams.  He's got great music, interviews, and live sessions too. That's it from Jazz Shapers, have a lovely weekend.

You can hear my conversation with Darrel whenever you'd like to as a podcast just search Jazz Shapers, or you can ask your smart speaker to play Jazz Shapers.  We're back next Saturday with my next Business Shapers, Antonia and Johnny Philp, Co-founders of skincare company Nursem.  That's it from Jazz Shapers have a great one and I'll see you Saturday.

On this Saturday's Jazz Shapers, I'm joined by the Founder and CEO of independent record label Gearbox Records, Darrel Sheinman is my guest.  I'm Elliot Moss and I'll have more of that alongside the music of the Shapers of Jazz, Soul and Blues this weekend.

On this Saturday's Jazz Shapers, we heard from Darrel Sheinman, Founder and CEO of independent record label Gearbox Records.  That programme is now available for you to listen to again as a podcast and through your smart speaker.  Just search or ask for Jazz Shapers, or you can hear it again nice and early Monday morning at 5.00am.

Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues.  My guest today is Darrel Sheinman, Founder and CEO of independent record label Gearbox Records.