Jazz Shaper: Anya Hindmarch

Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishcon de Reya.  What you’re about to hear was originally broadcast on JazzFM however the music has been cut due to rights issues.

Elliot Moss

Welcome to the brand new season, ta-da, of Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz, soul, and blues.  My guest today, kicking us off with 40 years almost of craft, creativity, and style, is Dame Anya Hindmarch, Founder of the eponymous luxury bags and accessories brand Anya Hindmarch.  Aged 18, on a trip to Florence, Anya saw the popularity of the classic leather duffle bag and the potential for these bags in the UK.  Borrowing money for a local factory to make samples of her design, she sold 500 back home via the pages of then called Harper's Queen, now Harper's Bazaar, making a £7,000 profit. Sounds so much money, doesn't it?  With her growing brand known for its personalisation and wit, it was in 2007, troubled by the impacts of single-use plastic, that Anya designed a canvas tote bag stitched with the words, I'm not a plastic bag.  80,000, yes, 80,000 sold in a single day through Sainsbury's, helping shift both public habits and supermarket policy and Anya's continued focus on sustainability has led to I Am a Plastic Bag, a bag created from plastic bottles, and leather bags intended to biodegrade at the end of their useful life. 

Anya Hindmarch is my Business Shaper today, got to get this pronunciation right.

Anya Hindmarch

I've been called all sorts of things.  My favourite was Anya Hyde Park.

Elliot Moss

Anya Hyde Park.  Anya Hyde Park is my Business Shaper.  Dame Anya Hyde Park.  I often have to say, do I call you Dame or do I just call you Anya?  I have a feeling I know the answer.

Anya Hindmarch

Anya or whatever you like, honestly.

Elliot Moss

40 years, and I know that sounds like an eternity.

Anya Hindmarch

Thank you for that.  Yeah.  It's so mean to start with that.

Elliot Moss

I know, I figure we go low very quickly.  It's the only way to cope.

Anya Hindmarch

I started very young.

Elliot Moss

You did start, you were 12.

Anya Hindmarch

You could start with that.

Elliot Moss

Yeah, well you did.  But you did start very young.

Anya Hindmarch

I did.

Elliot Moss

And as I look at your life and the horrible thing about only having an hour with somebody is that you try and condense a lifetime into a small period of time and it's a false economy.  It's hard enough to condense what happened in the hour before we met into an hour.  It's just life is not like that, each moment is a little universe in itself and yet here we are.  And we're going to talk a lot, I think, about my sense of you is there's been a, growing comfort with who you are over the years as a human, as a person, as a mum, step-mum, also a businesswoman, entrepreneur.

Anya Hindmarch

But isn't that age?  It's a lovely thing about age.

Elliot Moss

Well, it is but at age 19, I think you were, give or take, when you were in Florence and you sold those, you created the 500.  What did you know?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, nothing but in a funny way, that's, that’s the big advantage because you're not scared and I think often as you get, um, more into the sort of, you know, the taking on the children and getting a mortgage, and you're more scared to take risks.  So I think the great thing about starting a business young is that you just, you know, you jump straight in with both feet.  Um, but I knew very little, in answer to your question.  But I was determined, and I think that's a really important thing about being an entrepreneur, you need to be pretty determined.  I think you need to think that you know what you want to do, you know, there's a sort of certain arrogance of being an entrepreneur in a way.

Elliot Moss

And you knew quite young, as I understand it, whether it was the Gucci bag that you were given and the way it felt, the woman who came in to talk at the school that you were at when you were 15 or 16 that had an influence on you.  Why?  Why fashion?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, I think fashion because I like how fashion can make you feel and change your mood and how you project, and it can sort of make you the best version of yourself and I think that's the interesting thing and I love craftsmanship.  Um, so that's why I like fashion, I think.

Elliot Moss

But when did you discover that?  At what age were you connected?

Anya Hindmarch

Um, probably 15, 16, um, and, you know, suddenly that joy of the mood-altering aspects of fashion.  But I think also at the time when I was starting my business, there was such a feeling of momentum towards starting business and I come from a family of entrepreneurs as well, so that probably helps.  But it's, um, and there weren't many offers from University.  I didn't actually. I didn't even actually apply to University, um, so I think it just felt like a natural thing to do in a way.

Elliot Moss

And you've been making things ever since, though I just want to read you something, which I think is, it just, I laughed.  We do, we do some decent research here on Jazz Shapers, obviously, you would expect nothing less.  Um, Anya's creative process goes: I love it.  I love it.  I love it.  It's great.  It's amazing.  It's so cool.  I'm nervous.  I'm bored of it.  It's hard.  I'm not sure.  It's really hard.  I hate it.  Maybe it's okay.  Actually, I really hate it.  I hate myself.  Maybe if just, actually, it's okay.  I like it.  In fact, it's great.  I love it.  Has that always been the way?

Anya Hindmarch

Um, I call that the creative dip, and I think that happens with every creative decision, truthfully, and every new business idea and, um.

Elliot Moss

And always has for you?

Anya Hindmarch

I think it has for most people, actually.  I think people often don't realise it or aren't honest with it, but I think about it, but I think the thing is that when you reach that, I hate myself, and you're about to give up, if you can just lean in, actually a lot of business ideas can be saved.  And I think now with, um, age and experience, you realise that just don't give up at that point.  Sometimes you need to, sometimes you need to  give up on ideas but if you actually lean in at that point, you can often find a creative or, you know, a solution to solving that problem.  And, you know, I can live with that.  It's an uncomfortable feeling at the bottom of that creative dip, it really is, it's hard.

Elliot Moss

But you know you're in it.  You know you're seeing it and are you now able to be a bit more objective and a bit more distant and go, hold on, Anya, you know where you are, you know where you are, keep going.

Anya Hindmarch

I think that's the thing and I think you just know that actually you can solve things, most things are solvable, apart from running out of cash.  That's the one thing that's, well, it probably is solvable, but it's uncomfortable.

Elliot Moss

Dame Anya Hindmarch is my Business Shaper today.  She is the Founder, just in case you hadn't realised, of Anya Hindmarch.  She's the eponymous heroine.  I interviewed years ago Antonio Carluccio from Carluccio's, and he passed away, he's passed away, not recently, but since that time. And then after the programme, I walked with him to Carluccio's, which at that point was around the corner in Marketplace over near Margaret Street in central London.  And it was a bit like Jesus walking in and everyone kind of bowed.  When you go into your stores, is there a moment, I just caught a TikTok thing you did about The Village and you were looking at all the different things, which we'll come onto as well.  Does it, do you feel something?  You talk about how you want people to feel when they interact with fashion, but do you feel something as that person that's made all this happen, still?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, I mean, so it's fun, right?  It's my playground.  I mean, I feel part of the team when I walk into my stores.  Um, in fact, I was having a meeting on the rubbish collection in the café because we had an issue with the neighbours this morning so I'm very much part of the team, which is really lovely.  But yeah, it is exciting, it's exciting to have a physical, you know, place where, you know, you have all those ideas and it's poured into that little playground.  And it's lovely meeting people and seeing it through their eyes when you've sat through hundreds of meetings trying to work out what to do and then people are experiencing it, which is really nice.  So when you're in that creative dip, that's one to bank.

Elliot Moss

And also, I imagine to bank is just the general feeling that not to forget how the things that you make, make people feel, which can be very easy to do when you're looking at balance sheets and you're looking at costs of a new product and you're looking at why you can't source the material you want to source or whatever it might be. How do you hold on to the purity of that?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, it is a very nice thing, and actually, it's a great thing about social media, you see people interacting with the product all the time, and it's a sort of a live version of feedback, which is, and real version.  I mean, I think sort of previously you would often deal, you know, business, um, has changed so much that you would often deal via an intermediary, maybe a department store or through press, you know, there's always an intermediary. Whereas now you get that immediate feedback, which is good and useful, actually and sometimes the most useful stuff is the negative stuff, you know, if someone has a complaint about how something didn't work well or something broke, you know, that you just immediately get that feedback.  So it's a different world so, but it's lovely to see people wearing things and to get that, um, reaction.

Elliot Moss

As a creative person, do you get offended when people don't like your things?  You talk about there, you know, someone giving you some feedback and it might be in the context of, we love your stuff and however, there's something here in the stitching that you could think about because X, Y, and Z.  But if someone, you know, you do one of your, um, shows or you launch a new product or even the lovely ice cream with the crazy flavours and someone says, what the ? is Anya doing here?  Does that hurt?

Anya Hindmarch

Not really, um, I mean….

Elliot Moss

No.

Anya Hindmarch

I think the fact is you're always going to, you know, no one's ever going to like the same thing.  I mean, clearly, if you've put a lot of work in something and actually it doesn't work and they've got a valid point, and that happens, and I always ask my team for the, you know, I want the, you know, they're at the coal face effectively, you know, they're there seeing and hearing what the customers are saying and if you've put your heart and soul in to something, you realise actually they're right, there's actually a problem.  It's bloody annoying, sure, but it's also useful.  So no, I think it's, um, you know, all feedback is good feedback.  She says lying.

Elliot Moss

She says, I was going to say, you just should have seen her face there, looking at me, rude, I don't think so.  But that over the years, the ups and downs of, and I mentioned briefly again, a sentence doesn't do justice to 8 years of not being in the business that you loved and that you created and then coming back into it and then all of those things.  In terms of the self-knowledge, in terms of you going, do you know what I like running this business, I don't want someone else to run it.  Where have you dug to find that truth?

Anya Hindmarch

And so just to be clear, I was actually in the business but not running it.

Elliot Moss

Yes, yes, yes.

Anya Hindmarch

Just so that I don't, um, I don’t get it wrong, but I moved to the kind of creative role for that time.  But yes, it's weird when you've run a business.  So I was running a business before and doing the creative role, and then I moved to just doing the creative role and then went back to doing both, essentially.  And, uh, it's hard because I think in business, the most exciting bit, and actually one of the most important bits, is the culture, you know, everyone talks about the P&L and the product, but actually what they don't put on a balance sheet is actually the value and the asset you have in your team and your people and hopefully a sort of a fluid, um, mood of, you know, banter that actually means that you can have stupid ideas that become great ideas or great ideas that become stupid ideas sometimes.  But, you know, that valuable sort of flexibility and culture is really, really important and I think what we were at risk of losing, I think, during that time was that.  Um, so some of the good people were beginning to leave, and that was risky for me.  So the bit I have really loved, and I think that's an important thing about a founder-led company, and of course there are lots of ways to run a successful company, but I think there's something quite valuable in keeping founders in businesses that then transition on, as they will, as people, you know, retire or leave, um, but keeping that sense of community and culture within it.  So that was a bit I really enjoyed getting back and bringing a tight, we always talk about tightropes, you know, tight team with tightropes and whether that's the office in Tokyo or it's the retail network, you know, feeling anyone can pick up the phone, um, even on the refuse this morning, you know, actually there's nothing that we won't address and find a way through and then people, I think, feel included.  And that, I think, just brings enjoyment to a job and it brings, you get more out of people, it's just a win-win, really.

Elliot Moss

Stay with me for much more from My Business Shaper today, it's Anya Hindmarch and she is going to be back in a couple of minutes and I want to dig into family in general, actually, and how that has translated over to your ethos and the way that you run your business.  That’s in just a moment, don’t go anywhere.

You can hear all our former Business Shapers on the Jazz Shapers podcast.  I think there's about 550 of them, which is not bad, is it?  And you can hear this very programme again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favourite podcast platform.  My guest today is Dame, I'm going to use the word Dame, it's so cool to become a Dame, isn't it?  I'd like that.

Anya Hindmarch

I think it makes me sound like Widow Twanky, to be honest.  I think it's a lovely thing, don't you think?

Elliot Moss

Dame Anya Hindmarsh is with me today, Founder of the eponymous luxury bags and accessories brand, Anya Hindmarch.  When I said to people I was meeting you today, and I meet lots of cool people, they're like, oh great, ask her for a bag and I said, yes, of course.  Obviously I will, I mean, she never gets any requests like that.  And of course we don't know each other, so she's going to give me like 10.  So which one would you like? I mean, I don't mind, you know, you take your pick.  Um, but you were talking about culture and you were talking about tightropes, which I love actually, that's a very nice metaphor.  Your book, If in Doubt, Wash Your Hair, the things you've talked about with regard to family and the importance of kindness and your husband's grief from his, you know, loss of his first wife.  Um, you’re very, you talk about emotions a lot, and not a lot, a lot, but you actually talk about them, which I think is a thing and it feels like those principles are principles that inform the business.  How does that land in, in you talk, again, you mentioned that culture had been lost.  In real terms, what does it mean for the people that are working with you?  What can they, what can they say when they work with Anya?  That is probably something they may not want.

Anya Hindmarch

You obviously would have to ask them.

Elliot Moss

Yeah, and I have, just to be fair.

Anya Hindmarch

Oh, good.  Well, then you can answer that question, yeah.  So, um, well, I mean, I think it just brings a, you know, a working environment where people hopefully aren't sort of crying in the corner and they can, you know, so it's kind of kinder and more human, hopefully.  I mean, listen, every business is particular at times, but I think it's…

Elliot Moss

But fashion is not known for that.

Anya Hindmarch

No, it's true.

Elliot Moss

I mean, it is an exacting business and I know just from people that work in industry with very high-profile people, it can be pretty hellish.

Anya Hindmarch

Mm, mm, well, I've never worked anywhere else apart from some of the outside roles I do, but I've never actually had another job really, um, so it's hard to know.  But what is nice is that when people come to the company, they say it's a nice atmosphere and that's a proud-making thing and I'm really pleased about that.  And yet I'm sad to think actually that, you know, people might be working in companies where they can't be themselves or, you know, they feel too scared to bring something up or to raise an idea and that seems a great shame.  And I think it's actually a huge loss for the company because having that, you know, table where people can kind of go, ‘How about?’ is so important and someone junior come up with an idea, could be a brilliant idea. So that's a really important thing.  So I think I'm a great believer in kindness.  I know it's an overused word, but I think it's really important.

Elliot Moss

No, no, it isn't.  Are you kind to yourself, do you think?

Anya Hindmarch

Not always.  Um, and I think that's part of being an entrepreneur and a mother of 5, right?  I mean, who has the time, frankly but no, it's a good point and it's something I write about in my book actually, which is it's all very well if you can have hopefully a kind working environment and home, but you also need to look after yourself because you get very tired.

Elliot Moss

And how do you do that?

Anya Hindmarch

I have a very nice husband, he's quite annoying, but I quite like him and um…

Elliot Moss

Aren't they, everyone's annoying.  You know anyone after a while, they're all annoying.  We're annoying, right? I'm not saying you're annoying, obviously.

Anya Hindmarch

I'm very annoying.

Elliot Moss

Excellent.

Anya Hindmarch

So he says, yeah.  Um, but, you know, we get now more time actually.  I mean, it was obviously many very, very busy years. I mean, there was a period of, I think, you know, 3 years of 5 different schools as an example, just of the logistics of that on top of work and travel and, so that was a very, very intense time and, um, but now we have a bit more time and we can, you know, we can escape and have a bit of headspace and, you know, walking and all the normal things, but just time to waste.  Don't you dream of that?

Elliot Moss

Yes.

Anya Hindmarch

That's what I quite like about an airport.  I mean, obviously I hate travelling.

Elliot Moss

Yeah, you're stuck.  You've got 2 hours, you've got nowhere to go.

Anya Hindmarch

You are wasting time.  Exactly.  It's such a lovely thing.

Elliot Moss

And as a creative person, do you find that the quote unquote wasting time is a good place to ruminate?

Anya Hindmarch

That's the most important creative time and it's a real, it’s a real lesson, that actually, which is we've just got to put down those things down there, those square things that are always next to us, because actually you are, constantly just sort of…

Elliot Moss

Doing.

Anya Hindmarch

Well, just not having an empty head.  An empty head is very, very important.  It often hurts, an empty head, doesn't it because you kind of…

Elliot Moss

Well, it's a bit scary to me.

Anya Hindmarch

You feel, right?

Elliot Moss

Yeah, you feel things and you go, oh, that wasn't very good or that's a bit, what did I just do there?  There was something again I picked up when I was looking, researching you and, um,  you and I have one thing in common, which is we like lists and we like order.  I have a list, not just a list, but kind of colour coded for the whole of my life because I've got 4 kids and....

Anya Hindmarch

You probably have a list of...

Elliot Moss

I think we'll have a list of…

Anya Hindmarch

My list has been pretty perfect.

Elliot Moss

I don't know if I could compete with much, but I have a feeling my list is pretty good.

Anya Hindmarch

Really?

Elliot Moss

Yeah, they're world class.

Anya Hindmarch

There's a whole podcast on just that.

Elliot Moss

I'm going to show you.

Anya Hindmarch

And I'm not joking.

Elliot Moss

After this, I'm going to show you my list.  But I think, but the serious side is, when you…

Anya Hindmarch

Mine's going to be better.

Elliot Moss

It’s, I'm not sure.  I'm not competing with anything else, but I've got a feeling I'm pretty good on the list.  But in terms of that juxtaposition between the creative mind and the organised mind, is that a conflict or is it actually liberating?

Anya Hindmarch

I think it's, I think it’s essential and I mean, that said, I know a number of creatives who are not organised, so maybe it's not essential, but I don't think you, well, I think you can be a better creative if you are organised because you just waste time or you're inefficient or you lose things.  Um, and I am very organised and I know it's deeply unsexy, but I've learned to love it.  I've learned to create a business out of it.

Elliot Moss

But the way you say it is sexy, so it's fine.

Anya Hindmarch

Do you think?

Elliot Moss

I know it's not sexy.  That's okay, I think it just was.

Anya Hindmarch

I think you found it quite sexy.  Um, so no, I'm all about organisation and in fact, I literally, in fact, we did a whole, um, we have a shop dedicated to organisation, which we now call the Travel Shop.  It was called the Labelled Shop because I would label everything if I had my way.  My Dyno machine was the best present I've ever been given.  Um, I would label my 5 children, um, and…

Elliot Moss

Just so you can remember their names.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah well mainly that.  Um, but actually, we did a sort of a week-long workshop where we brought in these people who are so best in class at actually how to manage your time and they are experts on how to manage your inbox, which is why I'm just saying my list may be…

Elliot Moss

Okay, inbox, but what was the thing?  Less than 10 is ideal?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, they would I would say none because the inbox, they would say, is for receiving things, not for retaining things and then you put it from your inbox into different sections, things you can do on the train, things you can do in the car, um, things you can do in the office, things you can do at home because what's the point of looking at a list in the office of things you can only do at home?

Elliot Moss

Stay with me for more pearls of wisdom on list management and inbox.

Anya Hindmarch

That’s so sad.

Elliot Moss

It's so good.

Anya Hindmarch

Oh my God.

Elliot Moss

We've gone from award-winning fashion guru to list management.

Anya Hindmarch

No, I can be more fun than this.  I’m a bit embarrassed.

Elliot Moss

No, no, I don't want to speak.  It's my fault, I've led the witness.  It's totally my fault.  Stay with me for much more from my Business Shaper, it’s Anya Hindmarch.  

The highs and lows and the way that you've dealt with them and you talk about fear and how you, fear is your friend and doubt is your friend.  In practical terms, how do you not get paralysed by something that might worry you?  And I'm referring, I think a long time ago you had some trauma around public speaking.  That was a thing.  And then you've gone, hold on a minute, fear, do you know what I can harness that and doubt, I think I can harness that.  Doubt is your friend, it keeps you safe, I think you said, which I loved.   Because we all want, at the end of the day, we all want safety as humans.  How have you navigated that and come to the point where you can actually call them your friends?

Anya Hindmarch

I mean, I think age, learning, experience, all those things and they're still not really my friends all the time.

Elliot Moss

No.

Anya Hindmarch

But I've learnt to, know that it's okay.  Um, and I think as you get older and, you know, I had a child who wasn't very well at one point, who's, thank God, absolutely fine now but, um, you suddenly realise that actually nothing matters that much.  And that is a really lovely thing of getting older, that all the little things that we worry about, you know, day in, day out, that feel catastrophic and, you know, really serious.  And, you know, sometimes some of them are, but you will find a way through and I think that is a really nice realisation of age.  Um, and that actually all these day-to-day problems are actually the sort of fun that keeps us busy, do you know what I mean?  So not to say…

Elliot Moss

Yeah.  But that's very hard though to say nothing matters in that sense, nothing really matters, you will overcome because when there's serious things like your son being unwell, for example.

Anya Hindmarch

Well, that does matter and I think that's the point, but I think it…

Elliot Moss

But I mean, the perspective is what you're talking about.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah, yes, so I think perspective helps and I think also you learn that you will find a way through.  So things do matter and, you know, business decisions do matter, things that go wrong, of course, do matter.  But I think you realise that you will find the best route through that's what you learn to trust.

Elliot Moss

Do you talk to yourself about that when you're going through those things, those moments.

Anya Hindmarch

Sometimes, and I talk at my husband, he says.  Um, so, you know, that's the point of being married, isn't it?  It's the point of a car journey, I think, is to talk at your husband.

Elliot Moss

Do you have carguments?  We have carguments.  I mean, they're literally, it's a whole genre of arguments that only can happen in a car.

Anya Hindmarch

He listens.  I think a cargument…

Elliot Moss

It's a one-way.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

It's a soliloquy.

Anya Hindmarch

Transmit.

Elliot Moss

Yeah, yeah.

Anya Hindmarch

Um, I mean, he was a very, very decent man in that respect.  But no, I think you just realise that you will, um, you will find a route, it might not always be the best route.

Elliot Moss

But is there not a visceral reaction to when you're in that sense in that?

Anya Hindmarch

Absolutely, of course. I mean, I'd be lying if I wasn't awake at 4.00 in the morning and, you know, and that’s, but that's also how you work it out, right?  I think there's a process and it's not a fun one often, um, and sometimes it kind of feels quite physical, you know, and in fact, when I was in those very early years and that very, very busy phase as well, and I used to hyperventilate, I used to literally not be able to breathe.  Um, you know, which is sad, right?  Um, and…

Elliot Moss

But you learned how to deal with that.

Anya Hindmarch

Yes.  Well, and through lots of it’s, I remember going to this acupuncturist and he said, you know, what's your problem?  I went, well, this and this and this and this and this and, you know, and he went, well, you chose all of that, which was…

Elliot Moss

And you have chosen it.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

But I guess, have you chosen it, Annie, or has it chosen you?  Are you compelled to be this person?  You're not going to suddenly wake up and go, I don't want to run my own business, I don't want to keep having ideas.

Anya Hindmarch

Well, I think you do choose it, right?  

Elliot Moss

Yeah.

Anya Hindmarch

And so if you choose not to do it, you choose not to do it.  But I think it was a real, that was an amazingly sobering and useful lesson, actually, um, and I think that…

Elliot Moss

In what way was it though?  In what sense?

Anya Hindmarch

Well, it's just stop moaning and the fact is, you know, this is all your own decision-making and of course, there'll be tough things if that's the life you choose.  And by the way, I choose it again. I love it.  I realise that whatever I do, I tend to max out, uh, which is probably pretty stupid but, you know, I also get a kick out of it, right?

Elliot Moss

That’s you.  And then in terms of teaching other people and having, if you see it, you can believe it and you can be it, um, you've been involved in some efforts to help others who haven't maybe had such a, you know, aren't exposed to entrepreneurs.  Just tell me a little bit about what you've been, what you’ve done in that space.

Anya Hindmarch

Um, well, I think it's kind to share the bad bits as well as the good bits and I think it's a very important thing because so often people just kind of, you know, jazz up all the good stuff.  So obviously I'll talk to, you know, people who contact me and I was a Business Ambassador for a while for the Government and I was on the Board of Trade, various things like that and, um, one of the examples that we worked on was actually trying to, and I think we spoke earlier about the fact, I think, that in some ways mentorship or just hearing people talk about business and how they might have had a problem and found their way through it can really help someone in business who's in that sort of tricky moment.  And I think that sort of help is actually almost more important than access to finance, actually.  I think, you know, just finding a route through.  Um, so we set up a, um, we gave it a catchy name, which I can't remember anymore, um, but we set up an evening where entrepreneurs across the country in town halls were talking to anyone who had a business and they could just come and listen for free.  So brilliant, you know, Charles Dunstone or Natalie Massenet or, you know, Julian Metcalfe, people, you know, had really been through the mill starting businesses, um, came and gave up their time to speak at 6.00 o'clock, literally across the entire country.  And it was really lovely, actually and I think that sort of effort of just, you know, taking time out to listen to how all these amazing business people work through those problems is just what you need when you're sitting there thinking, I can't find a way through.  So that might be an example of something that, um, that was good to do and I think made a difference.  And certainly going and listening to, um, I remember listening to Jim Slater years and years ago when I was trying to work something out and he sort of said, you know, you have to always make the right decision for the business, which might be the tough decision, and then you can deliver it kindly.  And at that point, I was trying to do something which was a pretty tough decision, but I knew it was the right thing for the business and therefore the right thing for the greater good.  But actually, you can make tough decisions and do them really nicely.  And I remember that really helped me at that moment so, you know, important to listen and to teach when it comes to it too.

Elliot Moss

Final chat coming up with Anya Hindmarch in a few minutes, and we've got some Kokoroko for you too.  Don't go anywhere because that is happening very shortly here on Jazz FM.

Just for a few more minutes, I have the Dame in the house.  We were just reading…

Anya Hindmarch

He’s not giving up is he.

Elliot Moss

I'm not giving up.  I just, I like it, it's great having you.  Uh, Anya Hindmarch is my Business Shaper, and, uh, just as I said, just for a few more minutes.  So very quick quickly, when you wrote the book, was it hard to write?

Anya Hindmarch

Yes, very. I'm a dyslexic, um…

Elliot Moss

How did you do it?

Anya Hindmarch

Uh, well, I, I thought it was just 7 essays, I could do it, but actually you have to kind of link all the different chapters, that's the hard bit.  But actually, more than that, it was very personal, and I'm quite private actually and, and yet I felt it was, um, important to write a book, um, at a time when everyone was talking, well, my kids talking about mental health and, you know, anxiety and awareness and openness.

Elliot Moss

And this is lockdown as well, actually, wasn't it?

Anya Hindmarch

Yes it was.  Um, and I just felt it was important to write a book as someone, because we all have all those things, right?  Um, but to add an experience to that, and also to be a book that is not about leaning in or manning up, but is actually saying, yes, it is a bit hard at times, but this is how I got through it.  So it's a sort of book that was intended to be kind and to kind of pass down to my sort of daughter's generation.

Elliot Moss

Mm.  And once you, I suppose, you put it out there and you recognise it's there, that in itself makes things much easier to deal with in a way, you don't actually have to answer the question, you've just got on, none of these things are tough.  And everyone goes, oh, I accept they're tough.  You're not, as you said, not manning up, it is quite liberating.

Anya Hindmarch

Yes it's freeing and I think it's also important to be able to be a woman in the business world and not have to try and, you know, so it was just explaining, I think, all those things that also women have to juggle.  Um and now actually, to be honest, in my kids' generation, they're sharing it much more between, um, you know, men and women but it's, um, it was, yeah.  So it's out there.

Elliot Moss

It's out there.

Anya Hindmarch

Yes.

Elliot Moss

The juggling thing you mentioned, you've been juggling for a long, long time.  You keep coming up with stuff though, and you keep working your way through it, whether it's a refuse issue or it's a materials issue.

Anya Hindmarch

I could...

Elliot Moss

Or whatever it is.  Yeah, but The Village concept, you keep changing it.  Tell me a little bit about that, but also does it feel like 40 years is under the belt almost?

Anya Hindmarch

It's 40 years again, it’s just mean.

Elliot Moss

I know, I'm sorry.  I'm not meaning to be mean, I'm just like, I mean, I'm overwhelmed with being impressed by the fact that no, but it's not, businesses don't survive unless they're continually innovating.  The serious side of this is, you keep going and you keep going with new things and you've got humour and you seem to be expressing yourself even more and more and more in a fun, in a relaxed way, not in a force way, it's just kind of happening.  So where's that energy coming from?  Is it because you're more centred and aligned?

Anya Hindmarch

Um, I think you care a bit less.  The lovely thing about getting older is you just, you stop worrying actually um, and that's not entirely true, but you stop worrying about, I mean, there's that lovely Oscar Wilde quote, which is, ‘Be yourself, the other place is already taken’.  And I always think that's such a nice quote because actually it's true, you know, I am me and I'm very far from perfect and I annoy myself all the time.  Um, but, you know, you can't change and actually just leaning into that and if that's, you know, toothpaste ice cream or a, um, a shop that, you know, I don't know, sells weird things, you know.

Elliot Moss

What was the OXO one?  There was, was it OXO ice cream as well?

Anya Hindmarch

It’s delicious.

Elliot Moss

Is it?

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, you should try it.  Paxo even more challenging, but, um.

Elliot Moss

So who, and on that just for a moment, quick drop down into that.  Do you just then commission people to go and fiddle with the flavours and make it work?

Anya Hindmarch

No, we really work hard to make them really delicious and we make them in Devon.  And it's very interesting actually, taste and your brain and how you approach it because often you're like, it's going to be disgusting…

Elliot Moss

And it’s not.

Anya Hindmarch

And therefore it's disgusting.  But actually, so we do a blind tasting where you come in and you have to taste it.

Elliot Moss

I saw that.  There was a thing you'd done, a thing where you have all the different numbers of all the ice creams and then you have to make the, you have to connect the flavours.

Anya Hindmarch

It's harder than you think. Yeah.

Elliot Moss

It would be really hard.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah.

Elliot Moss

Especially if they're not very good.  I’m just joking, I'm so sure they were.

Anya Hindmarch

But seriously though, there's actually something lovely I think about thinking about retail differently.  Fashion was quite cold and not very inclusive.  Uh, we always had those intermediaries, as I said, between department stores and magazines and I think that actually now it's much more direct.  And I think actually your customer likes you just being a bit honest and being not, I mean, I'm not cool anyway, so that's easy but I think that sense of connecting with your community a bit more and being honest about why I design things actually does resonate.  And I am quite private, so it's kind of hard going to that more first-person thing but, um, I think that customers want something different and I think that sort of unsmiling, cold, overly thin model, um, rather than actually explaining why it can make someone feel better and what the point of this product is actually, it does make a difference.

Elliot Moss

But you must be a witty person because…

Anya Hindmarch

I’m not witty.

Elliot Moss

 Whether it's the, well, at least enjoying a kind of a wry smile, whether it's the eyes or whether it's the flavours or whether it's the kitsch kind of brands that you then integrate into your bag, those things are, they have to come from somewhere quite authentic, which is, I think I want to play.

Anya Hindmarch

Well I think I can't take myself too seriously.  That's because the annoying husband would take the mickey, frankly.  Um , and the children keep me quite grounded so it's more about that, I think, probably.  But also, life's too short, right?  We've got to have a laugh.

Elliot Moss

Yeah and it’s, and it is totally contravening all the high-end fashion rules that say, ‘This is a proper piece of gorgeous material that we have handcrafted over many years’, and there isn't any humour, it's all very, very, very serious.  Just before I let you go, it's been lovely talking to you.  What's your song choice, and why have you chosen it?

Anya Hindmarch

So I have chosen My Room by Earl Okin and he is someone I know, and he has performed for us actually at many family parties, and he's an amazing guy.  And he arrives in spats and sort of jam jar bottom glasses, um, and then he sings this quite sexy song called My Room, which is a bit naughty.  Hopefully it won't be vetoed. Um, and he plays instruments by just making noises that come out of his mouth and he's very funny, but sings beautifully.  I'm not sure it's strictly jazz. I think it's a bit maybe on the edge of Bossa Nova.

Elliot Moss

Bluesy.  It's kind of Bossa Nova.

Anya Hindmarch

Yeah, are we allowed? Hopefully it's okay.  But it just makes me smile and I wanted to pick something you probably hadn't heard before and I would really honestly urge you to go and Google Earl Okin and go and see him live.  He's just brilliant.

Elliot Moss

Earl Okin with My Room, the song choice of my Business Shaper today, Anya Hindmarch and what a treat that was too.  She said so many things that were full of wisdom.  Mood-altering impact of fashion, that's how she's seen it, and that's what she loves about it.  Acknowledging there is something called the creative dip and being able to deal with it.  It's natural, don't stress, you can go through it.  A team has to be bound together with nice, tight ropes.  A lovely thought about the importance of culture and the connectivity of people within teams.  Have an empty head. Clear your head if you really want creative ideas.  That is obviously the truth, we've heard it before, but I love the way that she talked about it.  Nothing matters that much, in the sense that it's okay, have perspective, there are big things that do, but most things don't.  You will find a way through, Anya, at her heart of what she is, is a problem solver.  And this I really liked in terms of thinking about business and being focused. You will have to find out what the right decision is, and the right decision might be the tough one, but do it because it's the right thing for the business and deliver it with kindness.  Fantastic stuff.  That's it from Jazz Shapers. Have a lovely weekend.

We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers.  You’ll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive, to find out more just search Jazz Shapers in iTunes or your favourite podcast platform or head over to mishcon.com/jazzshapers.